Jehovah's Witnesses, what is the difference between 'of all creation' and 'over all creation?
Paul, at Col 1:15, says that God's image, his Firstborn is 'of all creation' Yet such bibles as the NIV mistranslate it 'over all creation'.
Yet you do not hear people denouncing the NIV as being wrong.
Is it because they want Col 1:15 to say 'over' and not that Jesus is part 'of all creation?
So far everyone has ignored the question and are striving to change the subject from 'of every creation' to the definition of firstborn.
Our modern English dictionary defines firstborn as: [furst-bawrn] adjective, first in the order of birth; eldest.
mouse as: 1. any of numerous small rodents 2. a quiet, timid person. 3. a palm-sized, button-operated pointing device that can be used to move, select, activate, and change items on a computer screen.
What is interesting is the definition of firstborn doesn't say: preeminent as one of the definitions.
The definition of preeminent doesn't say: firstborn.
The modern greek lexicon NASEC doesn't use 'preeminent' as one of the definitions of firstborn.
G4416a πρωτότοκος prōtotokos; from G4413 and τόκος tokos (childbirth, offspring); from G5088; first-born: - firstborn (8).
Again to prove the trinity, one must change the definitions of words such as 'firstbor' and 'of'.
Trinitarians wished Paul had written 'over' and since it agrees with their false teaching, they accept it
Yes, it is true, Jehovah is the sole or only Creator, Jesus is the channel (dia; through, master worker) by which Jehovah created all things.
To make and to create are similar but not totally interchangeable. A factory can make a 'mouse' for a computer, but the factory didn't create the mouse.
Finally 4 different Bible writers under inspiration tell us about Jesus creation. Solomon, Micah, Paul and John.
Jesus said two are enough to bear witness.
A wise person uses a modern English Bible so as to understand God's word in modern English. To understand the 1611 KJV one should use a 1611 dictionary and not a modern one, but how many people using the KJV actually have an old dictionary?
- 2 years ago
Of all creation means he was the first creation made. Over all creation would indicate someone to a higher position.
- ΤιμοθέῳLv 53 years ago
What's the difference??? If I was in charge of all my affairs or in charge over all my affairs, there is very little difference between the two.
The argument over the word prototokos, or should it be the argument of the word prototokos, is a very old struggle between the modern Arians and the Christian Churches. If Paul wanted to specifically say Jesus was created in Colossians 1:15, he would not use the unique prototokos but instead use the less significant word protoktistos to make up a less significant Jesus such as in your doctrines! But then the context shows firstborn has more to do with a unique position of preeminence instead an insignificant created being!
But then the WBTS will add on the word "other" in its context as if the GB has something to worry about when their members read our trusted Bibles! The GB have control over their followers, or should it be the GB have control of their followers, but their struggles are full of vanity at the end of the day!
- crosseyedLv 63 years ago
the difference, as you already know, is that "of all" places jesus as part of creation, while "over all" doesn't, it identifies him as the creator.
the "over all" bit comes from firstborn meaning he is preeminent over all.
this is doubled down and confirmed if you look just 3 verses further where it plainly states he is preeminent. this is all about him being preeminent and clearly not about him being created.
and why would anyone suspect that the nwt got it right while the rest got it wrong?
nwt had no competent scholars on their "translation" team. it is a corrupt sectarian paraphrase.
search out every instance of the word "firstborn" in the bible and you will find it overwhelmingly refers to preeminence.
and while yes it does say everything was created through jesus, which you guys will always cherry pick, it further says by him and for him and of him all things consist. so when you guys say through him, then create an argument around it, it can only be a half truth which is not truth, because you leave out important information since it would negate your argument.
and btw i have never tried to prove the trinity. what i do is contend for scripture. when i do that jws begin to fight the trinity doctrine. this was so weird at first, but now i see you cannot discern between scripture and the trinity doctrine, so you fight scripture under the guise of fighting the trinity doctrine, all to conform scripture to what the watchtower really teaches. and none of you can see this. so blind.
- Anonymous3 years ago
Jesus is a God, with a capital letter, however, created by YHWH.
Proverbs 8:22, 30; Mark 10: 17,18
Jesus is El Ghibór and not El Shaday.
Record this well in your mind and heart.
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- Annsan_In_HimLv 73 years ago
It's actually the JW misunderstanding of the Greek word we translate as "firstborn" that is the problem here, not the 'over all' query.
Jesus is, without doubt, the one having complete priority OVER all creation as John 1:3 says He made everything that was made. Therefore (using simple logic) He is superior to anything made, and he cannot have been made Himself, otherwise John 1:3 would have had to sate, '...he made everything else that was made..."
Jesus is also, without doubt, the one having complete priority of all creation. Why? Because He is the unique, only-begotten Son of God who made everything that was made.
The problems only start when JWs think that the Greek word translated 'firstborn' must mean Jesus had a starting point in time - that He was 'born' by God the Father. When the Bible speaks of Jesus, it as the only-begotten Son of God - the unique Son of God, unique because this Son was never created, never had a starting point in time but created everything Himself. That's the problem JWs have. If they understood that, they would realize that either way the rest of that verse is rendered is okay because neither way states that Jesus was created.
Sadly, we have an example here of a JW then quoting a plainly wrong verse in Rev. 3:14 that DOES state that Jesus was created by God. That is the NWT rendition and it is simply wrong. The Greek text has 'tou theou' (genitive, meaning 'of God'.) It does NOT say 'BY God'. It says Jesus is the chief one, not that He was created by God! You see how easily the JWs are fooled when they don't check the Greek for themselves?
- SunnieLv 43 years ago
Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
The reference scripture is Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the congregation in Laodice'a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:"Source(s): jw.org