Doesn't god require circular logic?
If stop appealing to complexity, using the bible as evidence, or just saying "experiencing"god is proof of him or saying "most people believe in god" than doesn't god stop making sense? Since no supernatural bible stories can be proven or are mentioned by 3rd party recorders (no mention of a global flood by any records in greece or china or evolution disproving creationism), and since you cannot see, touch, hear, taste, or smell god; if the only proof of god is the bible and the only way the bible is correct is if there already is a god. How is that not circular logic?
- John SLv 76 years agoFavorite Answer
<<Doesn't god require circular logic?>>
No, it doesn't require circular logic. Bad arguments may - but a belief in God doesn't require one to invoke circular logic.
If I may suggest something -- I think you don't truly understand WHAT circular logic is. You may, instead be thinking of 'begging the question' or various OTHER logical fallacies.
1) personal experiences are not circular logic. Personal experience is instead 'subjective' and not very convincing to people other than the one who experienced. But we ALL use our personal experience to know and learn things. So it isn't circular at all, it is just a former of 'inner testimony'
2) There are Flood narratives in other cultures. In fact, MOST cultures, surprisingly, have some sort of narrative about a world-wide flood that took place. Native American tribes for instance - many have a story about a flood and how a group survived and rebuilt.
Secondly, I think you miss the point. I don't think many people believe in God SIMPLY because of the miracles in the Bible. Thirdly, whether or not these things can be explained or proven is inmaterial to whether or not God truly exists, or doesn't. Because IF he exists, then certainly he could have done these things, but if he doesn't, then obviously there is another explanation.
3) The belief in God is not BASED upon a belief in Creationism. Those two are simply 2 different things. One argument is in regards to whether or not any deity exists and the other is about HOW the Earth came into being. A theist MAY believe in creationism, but many believe in Evolution...they just believe that God initiated and directed the process.
4) There are more ways to know and learn then merely experiencing things with our senses. Our senses can be tricked too, so relying solely on them is not good. Even Science, itself, rests on a philosophical idea that A) humans are rational and B) the the world is governed by rules and laws. - nether premise can be proven by Science, it is just assumed on a philosophcial basis. That is why there is an entire field of study called "philosophy of Science" and why Science developed OUT of philosophy.
5) Proof of God's existence does not ONLY exist in the Bible. I think that is where you have made the largest error or assumption. There is other 'proof' for God's existence.
6) The Bible is correct on many historical facts, whether or not God exists. Many people would also agree with it on many other levels as well, such as on ethical or moral grounds, aka 'the golden rule' - So the Bible can still be relied upon for certain pieces of information even IF God doesn't exist.
<<How is that not circular logic?>>
The statement "The Bible is true because it says so" is circular - but I believe in the God and I believe in the Bible are NOT circular.
So I think you are perhaps misunderstanding WHAT a circular reference actually is.
definition of Circular Logic:
"A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true."
- pygonzaLv 76 years ago
Every courtroom in the world accepts eye-witness testimony as evidence, but for some massive leap in logic, atheists assert that eye-witness testimony does not count. If the reasoning is, people can lie, then we cannot believe the results of any research study, because the researchers could have lied about doing the study or fudged the data to make it come out the way they wanted. It is ludicrous to say that thousands of people giving similar accounts are lying. The Bible is a historical document. You can disregard it, but then to be consistent, you must disregard thousands of other historical documents that are not the original manuscripts of the authors. But atheists don't do that. It is only theism evidence that does not count. Atheists assert there are no miracles, and then when confronted with hundreds of documented cases of medical miracles, say those miracles are so common they don't count. Atheism is not a rational position. Atheists believe what they believe for emotional reasons, not logical reasons.
- no1home2dayLv 76 years ago
Sadly, this, or similar, kind of question is asked hypocritically, because most of the people who ask this kind of question don't want evidence, they want excuses to continue living a sinful, immoral lifestyle, and they need to justify their immorality.
This question has been asked - AND ANSWERED - many, Many, MANY times already, and the atheist God-hating hypocrites reject the answer.
But let's put the hook out and see if this is yet another hypocritally asked question, or if the question is asked in sincerity. Your response/reaction to this post will clearly demonstrate your inner heart attitude - hypocrite or legitimate. (Because the question has been asked so many times, I'll just use copy/paste for the answer, because the answer isn't going to change.)
Jesus said that if you REALLY want to know if His teachings came from God (implying the existence of said God), then "OBEY THESE COMMANDS (follow these instructions), and you SHALL know (one way OR the other)" (Referring to the Sermon on the Mount, beginning in the 5th chapter of the gospel according to Matthew)
This is an objective "litmus" test that Jesus gave, and He said nothing at all about having faith or believing. If you really want to know if Jesus really IS the Son of God (the God who is there), (er – DO you really want to know?) then read and obey the Sermon on the Mount.
If Jesus never existed, then nothing will happen.
If Jesus was a liar, then nothing will happen.
If Jesus was a lunatic, then nothing will happen.
If the Bible is nothing more than the writings of some crazy bronze-aged, goat-herding cave men as the atheist mockers keep insisting, then nothing at all will happen.
In other words, to the atheists who claim there is no evidence, PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Actions speak louder than words, so put your money where your mouth is! Take the challenge Jesus gave and prove Him wrong!
For anyone who flat out rejects this test, I have to remind them of some other words Jesus said. Jesus said that the reason people reject God is “because they are evil (their deeds are evil), and they love darkness (i.e. they love their sins and immorality), and they hate the light (i.e. they hate Truth)!” The only reason they don't believe in God is because they don't WANT to believe in God, and for no other reason, their mind is set in concrete, and their theme song is "Don't confuse me with Truth; my mind's already made up!"
In his famous book “Mere Christianity”, C. S. Lewis makes the following observation: "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a mad man or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
- NowpowerLv 76 years ago
I don't think logic is involved. It's more of a visceral event. It's a desparate leap of the heart, or so it feels. From experience I vouch for the fact that it feels as real as your automatic withdrawal of your hand from a flame.
Logic is a poor adversary to that experience. Logic won't always win as it did in my case.
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- PubliusLv 76 years ago
Certainly not. His existence is independent of human reasoning. I cannot reason him into existence; your reasoning cannot make him disappear.
We can know God through our own experiences -- that's the only way we can judge. You cannot demonstrate that all spiritual experiences are the result of interesting chemicals or mental illness.
But this tenuous evidence, available to all, is still more than an atheist has to support his opinion. There is no way to know, much less to prove, that there is no God.
- MoiLv 76 years ago
if you mean "God" then no. There is no "god."
God is not a logical God - at least by man's standards. He is supernatural and beyond human comprehension. And that why he gave us his word the Holy Bible to tell us all about himself so that we can know him.
- TheophilousLv 66 years ago
Your a'priori statement that "no supernatural bible stories can be proven" is false.
We would first have to determine what level of proof we are talking about.
Are we talking about the level of proof as required by our civil courts, the preponderance of evidence?
Or are we talking about the level of proof as required by our criminal courts, beyond a REASONABLE doubt?
Or are we talking about the rigorous mathematical proof, in which all other possible states are excluded by logic and reasoning.
As for your contention that there are no other 3rd party stories regarding the biblical flood, that is simply not true. The Mesopotamian flood stories concern the epics of Ziusudra, Gilgamesh, and Atrahasis. In the Sumerian King List, it relies on the flood motif to divide its history into preflood and postflood periods. The preflood kings had enormous lifespans, whereas postflood lifespans were much reduced. The Sumerian flood myth found in the Deluge tablet was the epic of Ziusudra, who heard the Divine Counsel to destroy humanity, in which he constructed a vessel that delivered him from great waters.
Assyriologist George Smith translated the Babylonian account of the Great Flood in the 19th century. Further discoveries produced several versions of the Mesopotamian flood myth, with the account closest to that in Genesis 6–9 found in a 700 BCE Babylonian copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh. In this work, the hero, Gilgamesh, meets the immortal man Utnapishtim, and the latter describes how the god Ea instructed him to build a huge vessel in anticipation of a deity-created flood that would destroy the world. The vessel would save Utnapishtim, his family, his friends, and the animals.
In Plato's Timaeus, Timaeus says that because the Bronze race of Humans had been making wars constantly Zeus got angered and decided to punish humanity by a flood. Prometheus the Titan knew of this and told the secret to Deucalion, advising him to build an ark in order to be saved. After 9 nights and days the water started receding and the ark was landed at Mount Parnassus.
Greek mythology describes three floods, the flood of Ogyges, the flood of Deucalion, and the flood of Dardanus. Two of the Greek Ages of Man concluded with a flood: The Ogygian Deluge ended the Silver Age, and the flood of Deucalion ended the First Bronze Age. In addition to these floods, Greek mythology says the world was also periodically destroyed by fire.
The Great Flood of China, also known as the Gun-Yu myth, was a major flood event that continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine: according to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, during the reign of Emperor Yao. Treated either historically or mythologically, the story of the Great Flood and the heroic attempts of the various human characters to control it and to abate the disaster is a narrative fundamental to Chinese culture. Among other things, the Great Flood of China is key to understanding the history of the founding of both the Xia dynasty and the Zhou dynasty, it is also one of the main flood motifs in Chinese mythology, and it is a major source of allusion in Classical Chinese poetry.
Your contention that the only proof of God is the bible is also incorrect. Again we need to determine what level of proof you are referencing, but it would be more accurate to say that not all evidence for the existence of God is contained in the bible. There are extra-biblical sources that corroborate the biblical stories.
The history of the Jews by Flavius Josephus come to mind. Pliny the Younger also has left records of the origin of the Christians.
It is a Christian belief that there is sufficient proof in the creation for all of mankind to recognize that there is a creator.
Romans 1:19-20 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
The existence of God is not circular logic. You merely need to examine the evidence without prejudicial presuppositions, and follow the evidence where it takes you. If you assume that the supernatural cannot happen, then you will reject all evidence that it does occur, due to you prejudice, or pre-judging.
- Anonymous6 years ago
the bible is 66 books written by 40 people on three continents throughout 1500 years
even if it was one book by one writer God is true because of creation and not Mother Earth, the Atheists deity
- Anonymous6 years ago
God sent his son to save us from the fire he'll throw us into if we don't accept his son as our savior.Source(s): How's that for circular logic?
- 6 years ago
If you don't start with God, you'll never get to God.