Why is there no proof jews were ever slaves in egypt? And no, the torah and bible is not proof.?
All my research has brought up nothing on this. I even spoke to a few Jewish scholars who can't answer the question and some even saying they never were slaves. I say no on the torah and bible as that is all religious BS and not fact.
- ✡mama pajama✡Lv 77 years agoBest Answer
I don't answer here to try to convince you about religion, and your q appears to be more a rant and not really about wanting to know if there really is or isn't evidence of the Hebrews in Egypt, but I'm still approaching it as IF you are. My answer will show you how what we do know about archaeology and history of ancient Egypt, truly does fit with the narrative in the Torah far more than many people want to admit, but even some who want the story of the Exodus to be true must avoid learning about because it threatens later replacement theology ( New Testament) claims about the Exodus/Passover.
While there is no archaeological evidence stating that the Hebrews/Habiru were slaves in Egypt, there is evidence that indicates that the people existed and evidence that the Egyptians also wrote their own history to minimize anything that made them appear weak or fallible. Military victories were widely lauded on stone, failures were omitted, or later carved out or destroyed, but other nations often recorded those omissions.
And there is evidence that the Hebrews existed as a people and there is evidence of strife between Israel and Egypt. http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/merneptah-stele...
Rameses II was the one to order the killing of the firstborn, when Moses was a babe. Rameses II had died, and been replaced by a new Pharaoh, known as the Pharaoh of the Exodus. If Rameses II is the Pharaoh of the Oppression, then this new Pharaoh would be Merneptah.
He was said to be a much weaker ruler than his father Rameses II
The Merneptah Stele, widely known as the Israel Stele, which makes reference to the supposed utter destruction of Israel during campaign in his 6th year in Canaan: "Israel has been wiped out...its seed is no more." This is the first recognised ancient Egyptian record of the existence of Israel--"not as a country or city, but as a tribe" or people
While Egyptians meticulously recorded events, Pharaohs were also known to "wipe out" the memory of rivals, or of defeats by virtually wiping out or carving through or over, records of them.
The Stele above would have been much later than the Exodus period, during the time of the Judges of Israel.
Something that came to my mind while first reading about the Merneptah Stele: If Moses and the Hebrews in their Exodus had so debased the Pharaoh, they'd want revenge.
A few years after the Exodus, a new army and chariots trained (remember, the story had Pharaoh's army at the bottom of the reed sea) and Mernephtah is now going to wipe them out in Canaan, in their new land.. He attacks the Israelites and, well, it's obvious the Stele wasn't exactly correct, since Israel wasn't wiped out, but since they were so far from home, he could come back victorious and claim that he'd wiped out the Israelite enemies who had plundered Egypt before leaving.
He saved face with that historic marker.
It's not much different than the kinds of history revisionism we see elsewhere today.
The Torah relates that the Hebrews were enslaved for more than 400 years.
Of course there is absolutely NO evidence the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids and there never will be. First of all, neither the Torah or the Jewish people have ever claimed that Hebrew slaves built the pyramids! They existed before Joseph’s family sought refuge in Egypt! The Torah states that the Hebrews built cities with bricks, not pyramids with stone. BIG difference. It’s 19th century romance novels, old B movies and popular urban legend that has Jews building pyramids. Jews have laughed at the notion for centuries that others attribute that to us.
The story of the Exodus is the story of the identity of a people, and it is up to you whether or not you wish to accept the identity of a people as they claim it or not.
The lessons of the Exodus read to me as if they are from the perspective of a people who have escaped the enslavement of mind and body to the superstition of idolatry, man/god worship and obsession with the afterlife.
Some people think that the Torah's commandments, in particular the Ten Commandments are evidence of borrowing from the Egyptians. I see that perhaps it was more from emancipation FROM them.
The Egyptian religions were obsessed with death and what happens to a soul after life here on earth ends. The whole of the ancient Egyptian civilization was one that focused on death.
I've run out of room, but for more on my studies of ancient Egypt and Torah to see what we can know based on emerging evidence
see my answer to the following fallacious question. I took the opportunity to actually try to give good info even if the q was bogus
My answer is incomplete without reading all links, especially the very last one above, please.
- capitalgentlemanLv 77 years ago
In act, the Torah, and Bible IS proof - it is even accepted in courts of law.
However, this is one major thing that is not (yet) supported by other evidence. There are some good reasons - how many writings are there in your local newspaper, or historical reviews on the people that take your garbage to the dump? Or, that work on the city sewage system? Probably few, or, mostly likely, none. Well, the Jews were slaves, so, even lower than the people I mentioned.
We know about ancient Egypt mostly in the monuments that were left behind. The tombs might show life scenes, but, the writing is all about the kings, or important people depicted. There is virtually nothing regarding the slaves. E.g., it was assumed that the pyramids were built by slaves until only about 10 years ago, when the worker's villages were discovered. So, even the people who built the Pyramids were unknown until very recently, and precious little is known about them, despite being craftsmen, and so on, working on such huge, and important projects. So, how could we be expected to know about slaves?
There's more. Paper only lasts a few hundred years, at most. And, even then, it has to be stored properly. Paper from 3 or 4000 years ago is long gone. The evidence we have comes from carved stone, or, perhaps clay tablets - those that haven't broken, or crumbled by now. The Egyptians simply made no monuments to slaves, nor recorded anything about them in stone. Which only makes sense.
The chances of finding anything about any slaves in ancient Egypt is pretty slim, and that includes the Hebrews. The only people this was important to was the Hebrews themselves, who carried the story with them, and eventually wrote it down.
- 7 years ago
We can't prove that Jews were ever in Egypt in substantial numbers.
But it is well attested from archaeological artefacts that Egypt was in the Levant for centuries, exacted tribute and used the region as a buffer against other empires it frequently warred with.
So maybe the 'truth' was something more like a group of Canaanites, perhaps displaced nomads who were struggling to meet the tribute demands, got fed up with the whole thing and moved off into the hills to get away from it. That fits the extant archaeology quite well.
It's not a very exciting story though, is it? Would you watch it if it were made into a film? Probably not, unless you're an odd duck like me. :-) Everyone throughout all of history has embellished their stories and made them grander and more exciting. That doesn't mean there isn't a core of truth underlying it all.
Did you ask the Jewish scholars you sought out what the meaning of the Exodus is in Judaism or how it's used? Have you noticed the admonitions to be treat strangers decently because 'you were once a stranger in Egypt'? The story doesn't need to be literally true to be powerful.
If you want freedom, you have to get up off of your butt and do something about it. If you want live freely, you have to change your thinking as well as your circumstances.
And always treat other people with decency, no matter who they are, what position they hold or where they're from.
If you want to call that BS, go ahead and make your case for why it's wrong.
- kaganateLv 77 years ago
Your research was insufficient.
The majority of the earliest Greek, Roman, and Egyptian historians who describe the origin of the Jews start with the Egyptian slavery.
(for convenience, you can see the history written by the emperor Titus, or you can follow the references cited by Flavius Josephus)
The interesting thing in modern "Bible criticism scholarship" is that until about 1990 such scholarship asserted categoricaly that the evidence was that the Jews actualy originated in Egypt and the traditional Jewish histories of pre-Egyptian semetic origin were rejected.
Then the fashion went in the opposite direction -- to claim that the Jews originated in "Canaan" (modern Israel area) and never got to Egypt in any substantial numbers.
And all of a sudden, all of the Biblical criticism scholarship of over 100 years "proving" Egyptian origin was suddenly disapeared!!
(one is reminded of the work of the Ministry of Truth in 1984)
Bottom line -- it seems that the field of Biblical criticsm is ready to jump on any fashion -- even if one set of "proofs" totaly contradict the other -- as long as it is not what the traditional Jewish scholarship kept carefuly over a period longer than 3000 years says.Source(s): Basic historical scholarship
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- AnneLv 44 years ago
Right. The Bible is full of "Scientific proofs" like: * The universe and the Earth and all life was made in 6 days. * The Earth is flat. * Rain comes from doors in the heavens. * People can come back to life after being dead for days. ... FACT #1: There's no good reason for circumcision. FACT #2: The evidence shows that Jesus Christ is just a mythical character and never existed.
- OrlaLv 77 years ago
Well, if the Bible is not a good piece of evidence, know that the ancient Egyptians used to erase or destroy all records (or almost all of them) of anyone who was considered to be a traitor or heretic. You can see that with Pharaoh Hatshepsut. Her successor tried to erase everything of her as pharaoh.
Maybe we still have not found any proof of slavery yet in ancient Egypt, but the town that was built by the Hebrews in the Bible is called Pi-Ramses. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.... Now this town is located at Avaris (I'm not sure what they call it nowadays) in the North East of the delta close to the border to the current Sinai desert where many enemies would invade their land. So it was a political move which was strategical and logical whoever was the pharaoh in question. That is undeniable truth. There are also other finds in Avaris: many stables for horses which would indicate that they could have been used for an army encamped there. But alas the town is too run down and after all the political changes of recent events and the stealing of relics, we may not find out yet. Maybe the next generation will.
There is also the location of an active volcano (Santorini) at around that time which eruption was very strong and reached Egypt and other countries around and destroyed many islands of Santorini. http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/04/24/volcano-...Source(s): I'm a great fan of ancient Egypt. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=volcano%20o...
- 7 years ago
The Torah/ Bible uses an historical story to explain a moral message, the events may not have happened, in a way a superficial reading may suggest.
Sometimes with ancient history archaeologists and historians were shown to have been looking in the wrong time, and at the wrong place.
- Anonymous7 years ago
Why isn't the Torah which are ancient Hebrew writings evidence? They are evidence.
Now, as for Egypt, they wouldn't be very eager to write down how they were punished by God and how they let a nation of slaves escape them would they? It might even be sacrilegious of them to record these events that showed the utter weakness of Pharaoh who was a god to them.
- Bobby BoucherLv 47 years ago
Not saying it's entirely impossible but it likely never happened. The attempt by archaeologists to find evidence for the Exodus has largely been abandoned. With the exception of one or two cities, none of the many sites encountered according to the bible even exist.
- MoiLv 77 years ago
there is substantial archeological evidence to that effect
but I am not doing your research for you
see "Hidden Moses" to get started
"Can any evidence be found in the museums of the world for the historical existence of Moses? Just who was the Egyptian princess who claimed him as her own son? And who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus, and who was his first born son that died in the 10th plague?"
First let's look at what we know about Moses from scripture.