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Does John 17:5 really show that Jesus existed separate from God, but with God in heaven before the world was?
I know many people believe that. They use it to show that God is a trinity and not one. I do not believe it and would like to see people's answer to the question.
For those who take this position, they must consider this question. What is the glory He had with the Father before the world was?
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Many of them would probably say; that He was speaking of the ascension where He would again be with His Father in the glory He had before He came to earth. That sounds good, but is that what the Bible says?
In Luke 24:26 Jesus connects the suffering on the cross with the glory He would enter into. So, it is apparent that Jesus enters into this glory by way of the cross. So, I believe that the glory mentioned in John 17:5 is the glory He would receive through His work on the cross.
Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
How does He have it before the world was then? By predestination. In 1 Peter 1:19-20 it is made very clear that He was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to suffer these things and to enter into His glory. So, in John 17:5, He was just about to receive that glory that was waiting with the Father for Him from before the foundation of the world.
1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
So, I don't believe it shows Jesus existed separate from God. God is only one person and Jesus is God. Jesus is not a separate "God the Son" Jesus was and is God.
So, does John 17:5 really show that Jesus existed separate from God, but with God in heaven before the world was?
@ Hmm the picture is actually a llama. No idea if it is horny or not ...
@ sirius, Of course Jesus had a God. As a human being He was created and hence had a Creator which was God. Anyone who has a Creator has a God. But Jesus is not just a created being, but God Himself. He is both created and uncreated at once. That is why in Isaiah 9:6 it calls Him the "everlasting" Father and yet in Isaiah 44:2, He is "formed" in the womb by God. It is His human nature that is formed in the womb and has a Creator God. It is His everlasting Spirit that is the Father.
I'm sorry, I said Isaiah 44:2, but that should have been Isaiah 49:5!
Isaiah 49:5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
@ Annsan, I hope it's not futile to argue with me. I could be wrong about John 17:5 precisely speaking, but I am certain of this: it is talking about His predestined glory. (It's obvious to me after considering it for some time.) What glory that is speaking of precisely is debatable.
And Isaiah 49:5 does prove that Jesus as a human was created. I'm sorry, if the Bible goes against tradition. Clearly it claims the Lord formed Him in the womb to be His servant. That does not mean that I believe Jesus had a beginning. I believe He is God and took on human nature. As the scripture says elsewhere:
"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:" (Heb. 10:5)
Surely, you agree that Jesus' body was created?
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
- Anonymous9 years agoFavorite Answer
It is essential to view this John 17:5 text alongside other established
Bible truth. Otherwise a reader is likely to go off on a tangent, as the
trinitarians do. The text does NOT say Jesus pre-existed as a Son...
He pre-existed as God. The Son had a beginning:~
Psalm 2:7 - 2 Samuel 7:14 - Isaiah 7:14 - Isaiah 9:6 - Galatians 4:4
Scripture tells us God was manifested in the flesh... not "part" of Him.
In Jesus dwelled "ALL the fullness" of the Godhead bodily (Coloss 2:9)
Paul also tells us God was in Christ (2 Cor 5:19) as Jesus also said
in John 14:10. We know how God came to be in Christ - by conception
as per Isaiah 7:14 & Matthew 1:23 - "God with us."
The one God (the Father ..1 Cor 8:6) while incarnate in Jesus Christ,
remained the omnipresent Spirit in His heavenly glory during that time.
Jesus said: "..I am in the Father and the Father is in me.." (John 14:10)
The Father (God/Jehovah) declared: "I will NOT give my glory to another"
(Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11) <--- so He answered the question right there ..
Prophetically, we are told that He "glorified Himself in Israel" (Isaiah 44:23)
and the LORD said: ".. Therefore they shall know in that day that I am He
who speaks: Behold it is I." ( Isaiah 52:6)
The LORD said: "..besides me there is no Saviour." (Isaiah 43:13)
Isaiah described Jesus as "the arm of the LORD" (Isaiah 51:9 - 52:10 - 53:1)
Jesus was God incarnate, and said:
"if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)
- 9 years ago
John chapter 1 declares that Jesus is God in the flesh if you understand literature.
John 1:1 says : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 says: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Revelation 19:13 "He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."
Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
***To Bobby: Not only the bible darling...the Qu'ran and Talmud mentions Jesus as well. Just saying.Source(s): Bible
- TroyLv 49 years ago
King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
- 9 years ago
Yes this is true. That scripture along with many others prove that the Father and the Son were separate.
Jesus was First Born and all other creation came through Him. However, Jehovah has no beginning and no end. (Read Col. 1:15, John 1:18, and there are many more)
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- 9 years ago
Exodus 7;1 God calls Moses, God. Does this mean Moses was God? To believe Jesus was God is rejection of the Shema Israel a Jewish statement even Jesus agreed with in Mark 12:28-34. Jesus had a God, it was his Father YHWH.
Jesus said eternal life is doing the will of my Father. This is YAHWEH. YAHWEH is the God Jesus worshipped. YAHWEH is the savior. Jesus' message was to take sin away from the world by doing the will of the Father (ie. Teaching the Torah) teaching others to know how to reject evil.
- GregoryLv 79 years ago
yes it does as does john 1:1-3
- Annsan_In_HimLv 79 years ago
You have placed a particular interpretation on John 17:5. To you the scripture does not show Jesus to have pre-existed in glory in the Godhead, before creation began.
I won't argue. I'll just point a couple of things out. In Luke 24:26, you have to take Jesus' explanatory following sentence into the equation: "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself." That includes the Shekina glory, did you know?
And what about John 8:58 where Jesus takes to Himself the name God used of Himself, at the burning bush? "Before Abraham was, I Am." The Greek grammar is extraordinary here because Jesus switches from past tense (before Abraham was) to present tense (I Am). Only by tampering with the biblical Greek can anybody escape this astounding claim of Jesus, not only was He in existence before Abraham was in existence, but Jesus is the I Am of the burning bush! That's why those who heard Him accused Him of blasphemy and tried to stone Him to death. It WOULD have been blasphemy, had it not been true!
Responding now to someone else's point, that God called Moses 'God' - No, He did not. Exodus 7:1:
"The Lord said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh..." Notice that crucial little word 'like'? Pharaoh believed in multiple gods and goddessess, in a hierarchy of deities. Because God's power would work through Moses, Pharaoh would be in awe of Moses, as he would be with the gods of Egypt. He would recognize supernatural power in Moses, and in his mind that would make Moses 'a god', or 'a mighty one' to be reverenced. But still Pharaoh would not obey the God of Moses.
Back to your additional points. It is refusal to accept that Jesus was not created for the first time as the baby in Mary's womb that blinds you to the rest of scripture about Jesus. Yourattempt to salvage your view by saying "But Jesus is not just a created being, but God Himself. He is both created and uncreated at once." That is nonsense. Any creature who has a starting point in time cannot be God. Only the creator of everything is without a starting point in time, and John 1:1-3 shows that is how we are to view Jesus as the pre-incarnate Word of God. That is my view and the view of orthodox Christianity for the last 2,000 years but I know it is futile to argue with anyone who has determined that Jesus is just a manifestation of God's Spirit. I won't say anything further.
- ?Lv 69 years ago
See what happens when you read the bible, you get to see the TRUTH!
The reason why people say Jesus is God is because they have adopted a pagan teaching that dates back to Babylon and Egypt. So here are a few thing to consider:
Jesus in Praying to HIS FATHER said: "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ. John 17: 3. So listen to what the son says when he calls his father THE ONLY TRUE GOD!
Here are a few more things to think about, , "
The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37)
Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
"God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (1 John 4:12)
God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
"Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Rev 14: 14-15 Here is Jesus is taking orders from another angel ! Can we beleive that an angel who orders Christ to harvest the earth is giving orders to God Himself! Or that he would have to tell the omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing) Most High "God the Son" when and how to do anything?
TRUE Christians do not accept the pagan trinity teaching!
See "The Truth About the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
- God's FatherLv 59 years ago
Oh Christ (quite literally) - god is Jesus but he isn't Jesus but he is, but he isn't, but he is at the same time, but they're two separate people, but they are in fact one even though they're two, but actually they the same thing, but two separate joined being/s, who aren't the same being, even though they completely and utterly are. And aren't.
- Anonymous9 years ago