Trinitarians do you need help with this?

Many who deny the Trinity accuse us of being dishonest in our logic. I'll cite one example.

When trying to prove that Jesus is created, non-trinitarians use Colossians 1:15,16. I'll render it from the NWT:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Non trinitarians call us disingenuous when we say that firstborn in this scripture means "preemminent one." They say that Jesus had to be created for this word to be used.

We dont need to argue that point. In fact, we can conceide and agree...I know that Jesus was created....the question now becomes, Was he created a spirit or was he created a man...

There are no texts that say that The Father created the Jesus as a Spirit. However, notice what Luke says about Jesus becoming a man, in the womb of Mary:

(Luke 1:35)

In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son."

Jesus was not always known as God's Son...He became God's Son FOR THAT REASON. The reason being that Holy Spirit came upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowed her, resulting in the birth of Jesus.

Thats why Paul says at Hebrews 1:5:

"For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son."

If born means created in Colossians 1, why not on Luke 1? Jesus was created in Mary's womb.

This is why he's the Firstborn. Of all who became created beings, he existed first. That is why in John 8:58, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I am"

I knw this is long winded, but a simple summary would be:

Ok, lets use your definition of "firstborn" in Colossians 1. Was this referring to Jesus' "creation" as a human or as a spirit?

Chances are they will say: Spirit.

Then ask: Are there any scriptures that indicate that Jesus was created a Spirit? Because I know one that clearly shows he was created a human. (Luke 1:35)

Then we can say. So I acknowledge that Jesus was created. However, that creation was not as a Spirit, but as a man. If we call him firstborn, He is only firstborn because he was the first of all created beings to exist. That is why he could say, although being less than 50 years old, that before "Abraham was born, I am" (1 John 8:57,58)

5 Answers

  • Anonymous
    8 years ago
    Favorite Answer

    Do you acknowledge that Jesus is also the Word? Because, if you do, then John 1:1-4 makes it transparently clear that the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus, was with God in the beginning and the Word as God. The Word was with God in the beginning.

    "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth... No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side has made him known... I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God" (John chapter 1, verses 1 to 34).

    If Jesus was made, then John lied.

    The Greek word 'prototokos' as used in Colossians chapter 1 does not mean that Jesus was created. Speaking of Christ, Colossians 1:15-17: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (New International Version) NOTE: Just as the firstborn son had certain privileges and rights in the biblical world, so also Christ has certain rights in relation to all creation – priority, pre-eminence and sovereignty. Seven times in six verses Paul mentions “ALL CREATION,” “ALL THINGS” and “EVERYTHING,” thus stressing that Christ is supreme over all. He is before all things, referring to time, as in John 1:1-2 and John 8:58. Speaking of King David, Psalm 89:27: “I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.” Does that mean King David was created by Jehovah? Of course not!

    Speaking of Christ, Colossians 1:15-17: “Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see – such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.” (New Living Translation) NOTE: ‘Firstborn’ does not mean he was created; it is a title, drawn from the O.T., indicating supremacy of rank and priority in time. Speaking of King David, Psalm 89:27: “I will make him my firstborn son, the mightiest king on earth.” Does that mean King David was created by Jehovah? Of course not!

    Perhaps you don't understand what the Trinity doctrine really says? It says that within the One Being of God subsist the three persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All three are co-eternal, none of them ever having been created. The Son is the Word, who was with God in the beginning and who is God. The Son, who is the Word, took on human form to dwell with man. When the Son was on earth as Jesus, and was baptised, all three persons of the Trinity were present: The Son, Jesus, the Father, whose voice was heard from heaven, and the Holy Spirit who appeared in the form of a dove. When the Son, Jesus, died, the Father and the the Holy Spirit did not also die because they are three persons. Check out the second link and look at the illustration at the end which explains the eternal relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    Please also read the third link which explains the origins of the idea Jesus was created. GT

  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    "Trinity" is 4th century add-on FLUFF and GOBBLEDYGOOK.

    Jesus never taught trinity dogma.

    He was the "firstborn of all creation" .. meaning He was the FIRST

    one born of the Spirit - from the grave - under the New Covenant...

    The firstborn of many ... ie: all the members of His church.

    He was God, the one God and Father of all, incarnate.

    (1 Timothy 3:16 .. 2 Corinthians 5:19 .. Colossians 2:9)

    There is no such thing as "eternal Son". In the beginning He was God.

    John 1:1 says in the beginning was the "word" = Greek "Logos"

    Logos is the mind, plan and intent of God ... not "Son".

    The mind plan and intent of God BECAME the Son ~ LATER,

    "In the fullness of time" (Galatians 4:4) born of a woman.

    When King David was young, the Messiah was in the FUTURE.

    see 2 Samuel 7: 12-17 and Psalm 2:7. Jesus had a beginning.

    He was BEGOTTEN and BORN ~ not "created".

  • vescio
    Lv 4
    4 years ago

    How come no person ever looks for a Greek immigrant to study it interior the unique and get their opinion? I did that to numerous. it fairly is much extra proper than your pastor. right here is what I discovered: historic Bible Greek compares to renowned Greek interior an identical way an English speaker can study the two cutting-edge English and King James English, it fairly is how close they're. All of my contacts verify that ONE God is being talked approximately and the endings of the nouns show that the two the emblems and God are the priority, as against one being the priority and the different being the item. interior the JW's NWT there is in user-friendly terms one place, John a million:a million the place they mistranslate the noun 'theos' with out the particle as 'a god'. an identical Greek noun 'theos' is used ten situations interior the Westcott and Hort Greek text cloth with out the particle 'ho' (the) and the NWT continuously interprets it as 'God' different than in John a million:a million the place they choose it to be 'a...god'. the two my own awareness of Greek and the affirmation with the aid of Greek persons, I even have been made conscious that in the event that they like to translate that verse lower back into Greek, they could desire to alter the Greek so as to make the emblems the priority and 'a god' the item of the word. it is, in the event that they choose it to study 'a god' the Greek could desire to study 'theon'. even nevertheless it would not. It says 'theos' and has no choose of the particle. The Watchtower translation of that verse is faulty and it disregards thoroughly the journey of a organic Greek speaker. Translations, virtually universally, agree that it may maximum actually be translated as 'and God replaced into the interest'.

  • 8 years ago

    jesus was never created he always existed as the word in the beginning with god and jesus the word was god with god in the beginning jon 1:1-3

    how could jesus create him self since only jesus created everything that exists physically?

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  • 8 years ago

    1......If goshen as son(from a parent) dies in a car aCcident(God forbid..goshen is my beloved brother) While going to see his parents would we say goshen as Father(to his own children) and goshen as husband(to a wife) will still keep living or that it just a manifestation of goshen that died and not Goshen ??......

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