At John 17:5-6 we read: So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself?

with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was. 6 “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

Verse 6 says: I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, At Matt 6:9 Jesus says: “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

When you sanctify something you make it Holy, how can you make a name Holy if you don't even know what it is. As we can see it's not Jesus as in John Jesus is asking to be along side his Father so saying God the Son is in direct conflict with Jesus' words at John 17:5.

Anyone who seeks understanding and studies the scriptures can only come to one conclusion and that's what Jesus said, His Father is greater than he is.

Revised Standard says this at John 5:26-27,30: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.

30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

What does Matt 28:18 say: And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

With just these scriptural references how can any Bible reading concluded that God is a Trinity when Jesus himself says his Father is greater and he came not to do his will but the will of him who sent him, his heavenly Father Jehovah God?

Only the blind refuse or try to change the meaning of Jesus' words written here in John and as the saying goes "if the blind lead the blind won't they both fall into the pit? Would you not agree?

Update:

@Anastasi...How true but why do you ignore that that Jesus is given his powers by God(Matthew 28:18) And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

If Jesus is the third part of a Trinity he already had this and would not need to be given anything period- the Trinity doctrine has too many holes in it because it's not the truth it is a pagan belief that has been adulterated into the Christian faith based on Jesus' words that said he and his Father are one, heis meaning one means one in thought or the same in purpose, the crowd moved as one for an example!

Update 2:

@crosseye it is you that has it wrong as i quoted scripture, read Hebrews 1:1-13 there you will see just how much Jehovah appreciates his beloved Sons sacrifice and how he has rewarded him, also see Col 1:13-19.

You quoted scripture but with misapplication, you also say the "word' is God again misapplication as Jesus is Jehovah's mouth piece.(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

(Matthew 6:9) “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

Jesus never once declared himself as part of a 3-in-1 godhead and it's man that has adulterated the pagan Trinity into Christian worship as Jesus never taught it!

Update 3:

@IJAH- Jesus was not and is not crucified :( Old habits die hard don't they ;-)~Everything else was spot on!

11 Answers

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  • Elijah
    Lv 7
    8 years ago
    Favorite Answer

    Yes, Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus himself said that only the Father (his Father) was the "only true God". (John 17:1-3)

    "That the historical Jesus did not present himself as God incarnate is accepted by all [theologians] ... Christian laymen today are not fully aware of it." And "[Jesus] did not teach the doctrine of the trinity." - John Hick, Professor of Theology at Birmingham University, in The Myth of God Incarnate.

    "When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him nor do they think of him as God." - John M. Creed, Professor of Divinity at the University of Cambridge, in his book, The Divinity of Christ, p. 123.

    Consider, when thinking about ANY father and his son, is it commonly regarded as them being co-equal and the same person? Of course not.

    So if God and Jesus both always existed and are co-equal, then why would the Bible confusingly speak of God and Jesus in terms of a relationship between a father and his son?

    The fact of the matter is that

    "... the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers; that in the time of Justin [c. 100-165 A. D.], and long after, the distinct nature and inferiority [in comparison to the Father only, of course] of the Son were universally taught; and that only the first shadowy outline of the Trinity had then become visible." – p. 34, The Church of the First Three Centuries, Alvan Lamson, D.D.

    However, it is important to realize that the Bible does not portray Jesus as *just* a man either. The Bible says that Jesus is the "Firstborn of all creation" thus making him created by God and not God himself. (Col. 1:15) Jesus was "the beginning of the creation of God." (Rev. 3:14) That is why Jesus is referred to as God's "only begotten Son" at John 1:18. (KJV)

    Jesus was originally in heaven, "but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men." (Phil. 2:7) God did this when He transferred the life of His Son Jesus to the womb of Mary. By means of God’s holy spirit, Jesus was born as a perfect human and was not under the penalty of sin. - Luke 1:35

    Recommended Related Articles:

    Who Is Jesus Christ?

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005134#p13

    “The Only-Begotten Son”

    http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008922#p3

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  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    Yup, at John 17:5-6 that's what we read alright.

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  • spider
    Lv 6
    8 years ago

    This scripture is self explanatory it show the relationship between father and son. If we read these same passages in a novel there would be no questions asked, it would be accepted that it is showing two different people. The fact is who is Jesus praying to himself and if that were true as many believe, Why would he need to? Jesus is praying to his heavenly Father because he knows and except his Father is also his God and he is God's Son.

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  • 8 years ago

    One thing is for sure, Jesus would be{ and is} being crucified all over again, every time someone claims He said He Is GOD,they heap on top of Him the lie that got Him killed to begin with, Jesus NEVER said I am GOD.........False charge of blasphemy. Because of Jesus’ references to God as his Father, certain opposing Jews leveled the charge of blasphemy against him, saying, “You, although being a man, make yourself a god.” (Joh 10:33) Most translations here say “God”; Torrey’s translation lowercases the word as “god,” while the interlinear reading of The Emphatic Diaglott says “a god.” Support for the rendering “a god” is found principally in Jesus’ own answer, in which he quoted from Psalm 82:1-7. As can be seen, this text did not refer to persons as being called “God,” but “gods” and “sons of the Most High.”

    According to the context, those whom Jehovah called “gods” and “sons of the Most High” in this psalm were Israelite judges who had been practicing injustice, requiring that Jehovah himself now judge ‘in the middle of such gods.’ (Ps 82:1-6, 8) Since Jehovah applied these terms to those men, Jesus was certainly guilty of no blasphemy in saying, “I am God’s Son.” Whereas the works of those judicial “gods” belied their being “sons of the Most High,” Jesus’ works consistently proved him to be in union, in harmonious accord and relationship, with his Father.—Joh 10:34-38.. hmm crucified? i will look at the dictionary, be right back....cru·ci·fy   [kroo-suh-fahy] Show IPA

    verb (used with object), cru·ci·fied, cru·ci·fy·ing.

    1.

    to put to death by nailing or binding the hands and feet to a cross.

    2.

    to treat with gross injustice; persecute; torment; torture.

    3.

    to subdue (passion, sin, etc.). of course more than one meaning, no to #1 . #2 is what I meant. althogh the entire" world " believes it to be #1 still wrong then email me My Dear Brother.OH and thank you for calling me by my spirit anointed new name. It is a most wondeful one.

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  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    The reason Jesus had to be glorified back with His Father is because when Jesus left heaven for earth, He was emptied of His glory - He forewent His Divinity. Whilst in a human body (God in flesh John 1:14) Jesus then had to refer to God His Father as greater of course, but Jesus made sure we understood that He and His Father are one (John 10:30) because There are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word (who is Jesus Christ Revelation 19:13) and Holy Spirit and these three are one. (1 John 5:7).

    Jesus Christ is IN THE FATHER and the Father is IN JESUS CHRIST (John 17: 21, 23).

    Do you REALLY THINK that God would tell His OWN ANGELS TO WORSHIP JESUS if He wasn't God? (Hebrews 1:6). And do you really think that God would give Jesus a throne for ever and call Jesus GOD if He wasn't really God? (Hebrews 1:8) and do you think God would say that Jesus is Creator (Jesus laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the work of Jesus' hands), if it were not so? (Hebrews 1:10)

    Jehovah's Witnesses have a doctrine of denial I'm afraid. The don't believe Jesus is God and they don't believe Holy Spirit is the third male personage of the Holy Trinity yet the Bible continually calls Holy Spirit "Him" "He" etc (John 16: 7, & 13).

    You are on dangerous ground when you deny the Son is not part of the Trinity because you see, in Him, dwells ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY (Colossians 2:11), and if you deny the Son, you DO NOT HAVE THE FATHER EITHER (1 John 2:23).

    So if I were you, I would not allow an organization of men to tell YOU what the Bible says, because the Bible was inspired by God's Holy Spirit. Check it for yourself.

    By the way - Holy Spirit is GOD. We know this because God is a Spirit, (John 4:24) and God is Holy too - hence God is Holy Spirit, so don't you dare call Him a force will you?

    Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1) and Creator (John 1:3) and this something everyone will find out to their cost if they don't worship Him as God, because at the Name of Jesus every knee must bow, and every tongue must confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Romans 14:11)

    So don't try to separate them will you, because God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are a Trinity (three).

    When Jesus was dying on the Cross for us, it was actually GOD IN CHRIST reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19).

    And don't forget that we humans are a trinity - we ARE a spirit (inside)

    We HAVE a soul (mind, will, emotions and intellect)

    And we LIVE in a bod. We are made in God's image, so it is not great thing that God is a Trinity. The only difference between God and us in this particular regard is that God is Almighty so HE CAN SEPARATE HIS PARTS, WE CAN'T

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  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    Why not read the whole chapter?

    Jesus speaks of the glory He had with the Father before the world began. Only a Creator could say this. Only God could say this. Jesus laid aside his divine prerogatives in becoming a man; but the Father has exalted His Name above every name that is named:

    Christ Jesus:

    Who, being in very nature God,

    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    but made himself nothing,

    taking the very nature of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    And being found in appearance as a man,

    he humbled himself

    and became obedient to death—

    even death on a cross!

    Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

    and gave him the name that is above every name,

    that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

    to the glory of God the Father.

    Philippians 2:6-11

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  • 8 years ago

    A typical case of misinterpretation of Scripture.

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  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    You are trying to conclude that if the trinity is true then god the father, god the son and god the holy spirit are all equal and fully the same being.That is human interpretation. If you look at the trinity within yourself, then you can see you as a spirit, you as a mind and you as flesh, all are you but all are quite different you at different levels. If you understand the human trinity then you can understand the god trinity.

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  • 8 years ago

    hi there.

    dude you have your watchtower "reasoning" that you're so enamoured with, but scripture says a different story.

    Is 42:8-"I am the Lord [Jehovah]; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another."

    Is 48:11-"I [Jehovah] will not yield my glory to another."

    Dan 7:13-14-I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and [men of every] language might serve Him.

    John 1:14-And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 5:22-23-"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."

    John 11:4-"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it."

    John 13:31-32-Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately.

    John 16:13-15-"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes...He shall glorify Me [Jesus]; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose [it] to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose [it] to you."

    John 17:5-"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

    Acts 3:13-"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified His servant Jesus."

    Phil 2:9-Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

    Col 1:16-all things were created by him [Jesus] and for him

    2 Thess 1:12-...in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you...

    2 Pet 3:18-but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    Rev 1:5-6-and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood, and He has made us [to be] a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him [be] the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    Rev 5:11-14-And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, [be] blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

    why do you let the voice of the watchtower drown out the word of god?

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  • Anonymous
    8 years ago

    Here's gods love, kindness, FORGIVENESS??... and MERCY??

    This imaginary "Monster-God" is a brutal, barbaric, sadist!!!-

    "And I the Lord will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend." - Jeremiah 19:9

    "Behold, I the Lord will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." - Malachi 2:3

    "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you" - Deuteronomy 28:53

    "The King asked her, 'What’s the matter?' This woman said to me, 'Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we'll eat my son.' So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him....The king said, behold, this evil is of the Lord." - 2 Kings 6:28-29,33

    "Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open!" - Hosea 13:16

    "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - Numbers 31:15-18

    "I defiled them through their gifts, the sacrifice of every firstborn, that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord." - Ezekiel 20:26

    "Then I heard the Lord say to the other men, 'Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all -- old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin right here at the Temple.' So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the Lord commanded. 'Fill its courtyards with corpses. Go!' So they went and began killing throughout the city." - Ezekiel 9:5-7

    "This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" - 1 Samuel 15:2-3

    "Their roots are dried up, and they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I the Lord will slaughter their beloved children." - Hosea 9:16

    "And Aaron's sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, the head, and the fat, on the wood that is on the fire on the altar; but its entrails and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall burn all of it on the altar, as a burnt offering, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the Lord." - Lev 1:8-10

    "And I the Lord will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine." - Isaiah 49:26

    "I the LORD told them, 'I won’t be your shepherd any longer. If you die, you die. If you are killed, you are killed. And let those who remain devour each other!'" - Zechariah 11:9

    "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." - Lev 21:9

    "Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm." - Isaiah 9:19-20

    etc, etc, etc...

    ----------------------

    THIS "HIDEOUS-MONSTER-GOD" SLAUGHTERS TOTALLY INNOCENT BABIES AND CHILDREN AND SLICES AND RIPS OPEN PREGNANT WOMEN, etc, etc, etc...!!

    THANKFULLY THIS DISGUSTING, PERVERTED, SADISTIC, BARBARIC, VILE, REPULSIVE, FAIRY TALE "MONSTER-GOD" DOESN'T EXIST!!

    ----------------------

    Watch this AWESOME video for much, much more!!-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y

    Youtube thumbnail

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