Transsexuals, if you consider yourselves to be real men and women, under what *facts* do you base this claim?
Recently, I have been having a discussion with a transsexual user through her email address, along with a few other transsexuals from Yahoo! Answers that confronted me personally due to some of my answers and my previous question that I asked two years ago about what determines gender. They all seemingly struggle with, have no idea how, or refuse to answer a basic question of mine, so I decided to ask a more encompassing number of transsexuals. One claims to have answered the question, but in reality, she did not. I have noticed that many transsexuals consider themselves and other transsexuals to be “real” men and women despite their sex chromosomes. Thus, to the transsexuals that consider yourselves to be “real” men or “real” women, what *facts* do you base the claim that you are “real” women and men upon despite sex chromosomes, or is your gender identity based upon opinionated subjectivism different for each transsexual individual?
@Cirque du Freak:
Ignoring your childish vituperation that obviously signifies your highly emotional nature, considering that I said nothing remotely offensive to you or anything that would merit name-calling, I do not recall ever saying that you had an XY or XX chromosomal pairing. In addition, what I would label you for that is obviously irrelevant to this question. Still, if you want to know what I would label you for that and if you wish to continue calling me names, bring it to the email system or IM me on Yahoo! Messenger at CuteLikeAudrey. I would be happy to "chat" about this there.
"Your black, you were a slave 150 years ago and a social outcast 50 years, so who are you judging , go back to africa you black piece of sh*t"
Emotional much? Nevertheless, if you seriously wish to post more meritless racist vituperation towards me with terrible grammar for merely asking a question to transsexuals about what facts they base the claim that they are real women or men upon, then bring it to email or the instant messenger because your racism is obviously not relevant to this question, nor does it answer the question. By the way, merely asking a question about what facts transsexuals base their claims of being real men and women upon is hardly "judging" anyone. You could seriously use a dictionary. Even if I were judging, the fact that I am Black and false claims of me being being a slave and outcast does not prevent me from making judgements.
The claim that transsexuals know what their gender is because they “just know” is obviously begging the question, which does not actually provide one with the facts or opinions on which they establish their gender identity, but rather says the same thing with slightly different wording. Anna, I am well-aware that some individuals claim that what makes a man or woman is based upon gender identity and not biological sex. Yet, when someone that does base his or her gender identity upon his or her genitals, chromosomes, gonads, and so on says, “I am a real man/woman,” apparently, he or she must be basing such a claim from either a fact or an opinion. I doubt anyone would state such without basing it upon a premise. Most people base their gender identity on their genitals, but, for obvious reasons, transsexuals do not. Thus, my question is simple. Do transsexuals base their conclusion on factual or opinionated premises regarding gender identity? If so, what are these premises and are
"how dare you compare being black which is solely dependent on ancestors to being a tranny which is a lifestyle. that is not the same. no one made a choice to be black. people made decisions to act on homosexuality"
Michael obviously did not compare transsexualism with being Black. All Michael did was insult me and other Black people, an insult that I honestly could not care less about. No need to insult the transsexuals, however. In addition, transsexualism is not a mere "lifestyle choice," nor is it even remotely relative to reacting upon homosexuality. Gender identification and sexual orientation are two completely different things, in which one regards being male or female and the other regards whom one is sexually attracted to, respectively.
Exactly how am I attacking transsexuals by merely asking them what facts they base their gender identity of being "real" men and women upon? In addition, let me get this straight, for merely asking a question about what facts that transsexuals establish their gender identity of being "real" men and women, I am somehow "no better" than a racist, an individual that promotes racial superiority, discrimination, violence, hatred, and intolerance for individuals based solely upon their race for illogical reasons? Shane, how exactly does asking a mere question to transsexuals equate to such negativity associated with racism? By the way, I changed my mind on sending you the evidence about two years ago because I reasoned that you were not worth my time.
"And since when is a genome the sole arbitrator of sex? You are trying to shove your opinion down our throats."
This is nothing more than a cheap straw man fallacy. I do not ever recall saying that a genome is the sole arbitrator of sex in this question. Thus, your claim that I am attempting to "shove my opinion down your throats" is without merit because such is not my opinion. Now, try answering the question at hand this time without putting words in my mouth.
"You need to learn some real facts and stop spouting off psuedo-science you quite ovbiously do not understand."
...And by asking this question, I am intending on learning some "real facts" that I was hoping that transsexuals themselves would provide me with. In addition, I do not recall posting any science in this question, let alone "psuedo-science" [sic] as you so intellectually put.
@Clones Don't Have 100k Pts:
"I've already argued with you extensively and you have no intention of seeing anything other than how you want to see it."
Not quite. I responded to your (poor) arguments with facts and reason. A big difference exists between subjectivity and objectivity. I explained to you logically how your arguments and studies within the video you suggested were not 100% conclusive. Besides, many transsexual people refer to themselves as "transsexuals," so I never took it to be negative. If it's that serious, then see me in court.
Yes, keep embarrassing yourself, Jessie. You spelled "pseudo" incorrectly, genius, yet, you have enough nerve to refer to me as "ignorant." Stop being presumptuous and adhere to facts. I have no such "agenda," nor am I insulting transsexuals. I am honestly asking a sincere question on how transsexuals themselves base their gender identity as "real" men and women. You are allowing your paranoia to cloud your reasoning ability, assuming that you even had such an ability to begin with. By the way, for your information Jessie, I never "dodged" a "challenge" from you. You disallow email. I simply replied to your failed logic and other faulty assertions.
- 8 years agoFavorite Answer
Not only did I answer your questions, I gave you pubmed sources to back up all my assertions. Your problem, Audrey, is that you enjoy arguing more than you enjoy learning (hence your Answers name.) You're going to find that this is a limiting way to go through life.
I had very strong opinions about things when I was in my twenties. I thought I "knew" things with absolute "certainty." Now, two decades later, I realize how little I knew, and how little I know now. I hope that before I depart this earth I'll have learned a bit more, but there's one thing I do know. I'm a real woman. If I wasn't, I'd be able to walk through walls.
I hope someday you figure out the source of this particular vexation, because I can assure of one thing... it bothers you a lot more than it bothers us.
EDIT: @ Penguineprotector - you might want to consider changing your Pulse profile to read female, and put your correct name up, which I assume is no longer Ben. (I do not know any self-respecting trans woman who would refer to herself as a "tranny. Yet another transition story I find hard to believe.)
- SusanLv 44 years ago
For the best answers, search on this site https://shorturl.im/awdzw
In the rock opera "Hair" there is one song sung by a black man in which he utilizes every possible negative term used towards black people. I hesitate to list these not wanting to offend anyone. The point is we human beings do that regardless of logic. I grew up in an all white neighborhood in a very middle class area of Detroit. The only black people I ever saw were on TV or in newspapers. There they were stereotyped and shown rioting or doing crime. With only stereotypical information I had developed a fear and even loathing for these people. It did not make any real sense but this is how I had learned. To me they were the "boogy man" incarnate. I had no means to be interactive and to learn about our cultural differences. So I was ignorant. Today my best friend in the world is a black transwoman. Erica, this is essentially the same concept turned towards us. It is used in the religious hate agenda too. What someone does not comprehend or more directly experience they know so little that a clear and concise understanding is not within the realm of possibility. Even Mildred Brown in her book, "True Selves" admitted that while she as well as other health care professionals helping transsexual people, do not truly understand this. They can and do empathize with us. They can see the feelings and emotions and know of the known etiology and where that is leading. But as non-trans people they cannot possibly truly understand this state of human experience. I understand you and you understand me as well as every other transsexual man or women will understand us. However that is all that can understand this malady.Education has already made some wonderful milestones for us. The advances in medical as well as legal forums are testimony to this concept. For now until more knowledge is garnered and more knowledge is spread we must endure this stupidity which is how we see it. Today Kristine and i are to be handfasted and heartjoined. We transcend all of this with love. As a Wiccan I know that our rede has the term "An harm ye none". I use this logic in dealing with this hate agenda. Give them knowledge as a tool and great works will begin. Give them argument and hate grows. Bright Blessings to all! Sharon
- Poppy SeedLv 58 years ago
Dear Audrey The Provocative,
I'm afraid I haven't taken the time to read through the other answers to your question, so I apologise in advance if I am repeating things. I'm not sure that I can answer your question very well, but I'll try to type something reasonably coherent.
You ask the question "to the transsexuals that consider yourselves to be “real” men or “real” women, what *facts* do you base the claim that you are “real” women and men upon despite sex chromosomes, or is your gender identity based upon opinionated subjectivism different for each transsexual individual?"
To address that specifically I would say that in my case neither of those options quite apply, if I have understood you correctly. Clearly I was not born with the physical characteristics of the gender I identify with (I don't know about the physical characteristics of my brain, or what gender differences there are in that regard), or the chromosomes or whatever, but at the same time I don't think my identification is really the result of subjective, socially-constructed gender identity, either. Identifying as one gender of the other on the grounds of perceived commonality in terms of personality or 'mental characteristics' (for want of a better term) is not something that I would be comfortable with, and seems altogether too narrow. Who am I to say that one set of behaviours or feelings are 'female' and one 'male' when there are so many people who would be arbitrarily excluded under such definitions?
There have been numerous times when I have been tempted to reject the whole idea of gender and simply settle for neither. Generally I don't do this, though. I feel clear that I don't fit the gender of the body I was born with, but I can offer no empirical justification outside of my feeling of certainty--a feeling that I can't remember ever not having, at least as long as I was really aware of gender at all. This is of course not an objective claim on my part--I cannot reasonably say that I know the absolute definition of the respective genders, or that I embody one of those, so perhaps that is what you referred to when you said "based upon opinionated subjectivism different for each transsexual individual" (I have to confess I found your question a little bit hard to follow at times). To me gender identity is exactly that: identity. To be honest, now that I come to think about it, the way gender is defined isn't something that I feel all that strongly about--I mean, if perceive myself to be male or female then that's enough for me--I don't require any further justification than that, and nor do I ask it of anyone else. Regardless of the science (which I know nothing of in any case) I am simply grateful to those who accept me however I look and however I perceive myself to be. I think this may have been what you were getting at, so apologies if I have just bored you with this.
Well, anyway, I hope my answer was at least somewhat helpful and not too pointless and rambly.
- Anonymous8 years ago
I have no more facts, than you do about your sexuality. I am a gender queer individual, this I know by heart. How do I know? Well first off... I identify as one (That's a small part, but still plays a part). Second, being uncomfortable about being male, or more specifically a "boy" for a long time would play another part.
It's my belief that chromosomes don't make your sex or gender. They determine what you will BECOME biologically. Even the chromosomes can't argue with the powers of HRT.
Gender identity is based mostly on on social issues, or unbringing. But yes, some biological parts do play a role. Such as hormonal influences at certain points of fetal, or child hood developement. That mixed with certain genetics can result in gender indifferences.
Gender expression and identity are different things. Also, gender isn't black and white. It's a spectrum that we all typically fit on. It just depends on where, or if you choose to identify as fitting on it for whatever reasons may be.
Of course I don't base this on any "proof"... like you can't base your sexuality on any "proof".
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- AnnaLv 78 years ago
What makes a man or a woman isn't based on biological sex, but gender identity. A transman identifies as male just as much as any cisgendered man. Same for transwomen.
If you're wondering how trans people know what their gender is, then you have to ask how ANYONE knows what their gender is. You just know.
I just had a similar discussing with a cisgendered man the other day. He was claiming that he knows he is a man because he has a penis...so I said to him, so let's say hypothetically your penis was somehow cut off in some tragic accident...you'd stop identifying as a man? And he was like hell no, I'd still be a man. And I was like, yes...thank you for proving my point that gender is something separate from sex, and that you identify as male not because of what's between your legs but because your gender identity is male.
- .Lv 68 years ago
Oh dear Audrey, i see you're still attacking transsexual people even despite overwhelming evidence that transsexualism is a congenital birth condition.
I remember awhile ago you were going to email me your "proof" that transsexualism wasn't a biological condition. You claimed to have "proof" that there was no scientific evidence to support biological causes for transsexualism. Well, this proof never materialised and you never emailed me anything.
I agree with Erica, you just like to argue with people even when you have been proven wrong time and time again.
Transsexualism is as much of a choice as being black. So if you want to attack transsexual people, then you are no better then a racist person who attacks you for being black and attempts to demean you for it. You're no better than a racist at the end of the day.
Ignorance is ignorance and hate is hate.
- 8 years ago
I'm transgendered. I was born with a male body, but since I was four years old I've known I should have been born a girl.
I started my transition a little over a year ago, and am now four months into Hormone Replacement Therapy, among other things. I have a new name, a new wardrobe, and a new lifestyle, but despite those facts I don't think I'll ever by able to consider myself a 'real' women. That's weird; I know, but I just don't think I can compare with the ladies who were lucky enough to be born as such.
But hey, that's just one tranny's two cents.Source(s): I'm trans.
- 8 years ago
Though I am not transgender. But I have recently had a similar dialog going. More based on "gayness".
Hermaphrodites. I think the key lies with them and their existence, the fact that they can be here, is proof to me that that gayness and transgenderedness, is simply a genetic mutation of sorts.
That our chromosomes are female the chromosomes that control who we are attracted to aren't as they should be. Not that its wrong or anything but I do feel that its how God made us. That these are things he has put together in us that we must conquer, not by fighting against it but by Loving ourselves as he made us. That we can have a closer relationship with God by Loving ourselves as his perfect creations.Source(s): My own meditations. And time in Prayer on the matter. its a very close to home topic for me.
- 8 years ago
The answer is fairly simple. Concretely, you consider man and woman based upon chromosomal concepts, right? However, the *connotation* of these genders is much more deep and complex, and also quite subjective. These genders involve ideas, roles, behaviors, characteristics, and more- including a distinct sensation to the beholder that defines gender-and it is rather ambiguous to define in concrete terms.
Thusly, the validity of the transgender experience is in just that- their experiences. It's based upon qualitative factors, and it is not something that we have been able to exactly quantify yet- but perhaps after a few more advances in neurology, eh?
My, my, what unfortunate name calling going on around here...tsk tsk tsk.
- JessicaLv 78 years ago
So when did YOU get Karotyped? Put up or shut up, Audrey. Assume the burden of proof you impose upon us. And since when is a genome the sole arbitrator of sex? You are trying to shove your opinion down our throats. Your mind is made up and you will not accept an answer which contradicts your ignorant opinion, making this entire question meaningless.
Edit: Audrey, you are not asking a question. You are trying to justify your ignorant opinion, and dismissing people who offer answers that differ from the one you're looking for. You already have an agenda, and you're looking for support. Not finding it, you insult us. If sex chromosomes are not the only determinatior of gender, then why do they feature so prominently in your "question"? They're the only piece of science I can find buried in that wall of ignorant opinion you claim is a question, so that's what I chose to address. Everything else in there is meaningless. I said "psuedo" and I meant "psuedo". The garbage you're spouting off doesn't even deserve to be called "pseudo".
Also, your dodge of my challenge is noted.
You didn't put up, therefore it's time for you to shut up.
Edit2: So get Karotyped. Then post the proof. You put so much emphasis on it, it must have deep meaning for you. But I bet you're merely assuming your genetic makeup, just like you're assuming you know what you're talking about.
Yes, I did misspell it. Deliberately, because like all trolls, you do not warrant correct spelling. You have an agenda and you know it. Your biased "question" reveals it, and your angry replies reveal more of it. You are trying to get responses that validate your prejudices, and you are getting angry when we don't back them up. Well too bad, so sad, troll. You're not going to get what you want from us. You insult us when you degender us. You insult us when you presume to define us to suit your prejudices. You insult us when you do not listen to what we tell you when it disagrees with your ignorant prejudices. You insult us when you play your little intellectual masturbatory games with our identities.
Now begone troll, or I shall be forced to release the billygoats.Source(s): You need to learn some real facts and stop spouting off psuedo-science you quite ovbiously do not understand.