Jehovah's witnesses - What is the meaning of Rom 9:6?
Yes, I have asked this many times yet none of you has explained your societies take on the scripture.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel - Rom 9:6
So as the scripture reads not all who are descendants of Jacob are truly Israel in the eyes of God. Even in the old days of the law certain ones were not considered Israel if they behaved a certain way. Why then do you interpret this to mean that gentiles now are a part of Israel when this is nowhere mentioned in THIS scripture?
I see no valid reason to use this a a scripture that backs up a gentile spiritual nation.
Can you explain, THIS SCRIPTURE.
- Anonymous9 years agoFavorite Answer
To the contrary, we have explained this verse to you many times
Further, God's Word itself clearly teaches that Israel was a typical representation and what was said of Israel now directly applies to the True Christian congregation.
Peter applies what was said of Israel to Christians (Ex.19:5-6 / 1Pe 2:9-10). Paul shows that what was said of Israel now applies to an "Israel" which has nothing to do with whether one is a natural Jew or not (Gal. 3:26-29; 6:16; Mt.3:9; 21:42- 43). Replacing natural Israel as God's nation, it becomes a new "Israel" that is "really 'Israel'" (Rom.2:28-29; 9:6-9).
It is clear that "Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved" (Rm.9:27).
So "only a remnant" of natural Israel will be saved and NOT Israel as a nation. Jews would have to become Christian and accept Christ. John's vision of those on the heavenly Mount Zion revealed the spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind" not "from among the Jews" (Rev.7:4; 14:1,4; 5:9,10; Jas 1:1).
Paul said that natural "Israel" is not "really Israel" (Rm.2:28-29; 9:6-9).
Rom.11:1,2 says: "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew" but, the context makes it clear that salvation would not be given to Israel as an "nation" but only to a "remnant," and only to the "ones chosen" as contrasted with "the rest" who were blinded. Paul only held out a hope to "save some from among them" (Rm.11:5-14).
Witnesses know that the primary fulfillment of the N.T. statements are directed at *spiritual* Israel and the Gentile nations.
Speaking to the Jewish religious leaders; Jesus said: "This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits (Mat.21:42-43). Replacing natural Israel as God's nation, it becomes a new "Israel" that is "really 'Israel'" (Rom.2:28-29; 9:6-9).
John's vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind" not "from among the Jews (Rev. 7:4; 14:1, 4; 5:9,10; James 1:1).
As God's covenant people these natural Jews had the first opportunity to be part of the New Covenant to rule as kings in heaven (Ac 3:25,26; Ro 1:16; Heb 8:7-13). However, as a nation Israel failed to fill up that number (Jn/ 1:10-13; Ac 13:46; Rom. 9:27; 11:7-10). Later, so that the "full number of those sealed" would be completed the invitation was extended to non-Jews (Isa 55:5; Ac 10:44-45; 15:14; Ro 11:25; 15:14; Eph 2:11-13; 3:1-6; Rev. 5:9-10; 7:4). Jews could only get another chance by becoming Christian and accepting Christ. John's vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind" not "from among the Jews (Rev. 7:4; 14:1, 4; 5:9,10; James 1:1).
The restoration prophecies of Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah are in line with the prophecies of Christ regarding the complete restoration of True Worship that would come at the "time of the end" (Ac.3:20- 21; 20:29-30; Lk.19:11,12; Mt.25:21-30; 2Thes.2:3-12; 1Tim.4:1; 2Pt.2:1-3).
At "the conclusion of the system of things...the righteous ones would then shine as brightly as the sun" (Mt.13:24-30, 36- 43; 24:45-47; Dan.12:1,3,4,10).
By their biblical beliefs and Christlike actions Jehovah's Witnesses prove that they are fulfilling the restoration prophecy of Ezekiel regarding faithful spiritual Israel. This is the testimony of the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 6:9-11; Gal.5:19-22).
BAR-ANERGESSource(s): http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201111... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201106... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=201106... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ava31...
- Actor ManLv 49 years ago
Seemed pretty straight-forward to me, even using your own explanation.
The Bible speaks of the 'alien and foreign resident' that worshipped Jehovah being of that 'non-Israelite' group, yet still benefiting from their relationship with Jehovah God. The greatest of these non-Israelite aliens might possibly be the righteous man Job.
The Bible also speaks of a spiritual Israel in addition to fleshly Israel.
But to be quite frank, I'm not sure what you're issue is. If Job, the greatest of all the Orientals, was considered... and PROMOTED... as 'blameless and upright' by Jehovah God himself to the angelic host, then it would be clear that Jehovah God accepts all those that do his will (Job 1:3, 8).
Based on that logic alone, it would appear that Jehovah God does indeed consider gentiles to be a part of a spiritual Israel. Not a gentile spiritual Israel as you claim we believe (and which is highly inaccurate)... but a spiritual Israel that includes people from ALL walks of life.Source(s): Job 1:3—... and that man came to be the greatest of all the Orientals.; Job 1:8—"And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?”"
- conundrumLv 79 years ago
Basically the Hebrew congregation was composed of natural Israelites. Persons comprising the anointed Christian congregation of God are spiritual Israelites, forming the tribes of spiritual Israel. (Re 7:4-8) Inasmuch as the majority of the natural Israelites rejected Jesus Christ, “not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel,’” that is, spiritual Israel. (Ro 9:6-9) And, regarding the Christian congregation of God comprised of spiritual Jews, Paul stated: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.”—Ro 2:28, 29.
* Satisfied?- l hope so.
- РобертLv 79 years ago
Please read the whole relevant piece - This piece ends at v. 13.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: :7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. :8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. :9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. :10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; :11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) :12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. :13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
He lays down this proposition - that they are not all Israel who are of Israel (Rom_9:6), neither because they are, etc., Rom_9:7. Many that descended from the loins of Abraham and Jacob, and were of that people who were surnamed by the name of Israel, yet were very far from being Israelites indeed, interested in the saving benefits of the new covenant. They are not all really Israel that are so in name and profession. It does not follow that, because they are the seed of Abraham, therefore they must needs be the children of God, though they themselves fancied so, boasted much of, and built much upon, their relation to Abraham, Mat_3:9; Joh_8:38, Joh_8:39. But it does not follow. Grace does not run in the blood; nor are saving benefits inseparably annexed to external church privileges, though it is common for people thus to stretch the meaning of God's promise, to bolster themselves up in a vain hope.
II. He proves this by instances; and therein shows not only that some of Abraham's seed were chosen, and others not, but that God therein wrought according to the counsel of his own will; and not with regard to that law of commandments to which the present unbelieving Jews were so strangely wedded.
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- 9 years ago
Here's what one Bible scholar has said:
The Priority of God’s Call 9:6b–13
The thesis is supported by an argument that makes a distinction within Israel. God’s word has not failed because not all those descended from Israel are Israel. Paul distinguishes between ethnic Israel and true Israel on the basis of the Abraham story. Not all of Abraham’s children are seed, as God’s promise did not mean the “salvation” of all his descendants. The scriptural proof is Genesis 21:12, in Isaac shall your seed be called. Paul’s point here is the reverse of 4:13–18, where he argued that Abraham’s seed was more extensive than his physical descendants. But the central point is similar. The true children of Abraham are not defined by physical descent or ethnic origin.
Verses 8–13 interpret and support the argument of vv. 6–7. Verse 8 offers a commentary on the Genesis citation in v. 7b. The commentary makes a negative and a positive statement. First, the children of the flesh (e.g., Ishmael and his descendants) are not the children of God. The positive assertion is that the children of promise (e.g., Isaac and his descendants) are reckoned as seed. The commentary is supported with another Scripture citation, Genesis 18:10. The son born to Sarah is a gift of divine promise and initiative, I will come.
Paul’s first point is that from the beginning God has made a differentiation within Israel:
the ones not out of Israel
the children of the flesh
the children of God
the children of promise
God has a commitment only to the second group. While many Jewish contemporaries linked descent from Abraham with covenant salvation, some distinguished a “true Israel” from the larger group (CD 4:2–12; 4QFlor. 1:14–19; 1 En. 1:8–9). Paul uses the distinction to argue that God’s salvation and blessing is based solely on God’s choice and promise.
Paul adds another scriptural story for support. Ishmael and Isaac were the children of two different mothers and two different sex acts. But Rebekah got pregnant with twins through one sex act with one man (Gen. 25:21). And even here God made a choice before they were born, before they could do any works that deserved being selected.
Verse 11b offers the second commentary. The choice of Jacob over Esau is interpreted with a purpose clause, in order that the freedom of election in God’s purpose might remain not out of works but out of calling. The commentary is supported by two scriptural citations, Genesis 25:23 and Malachi 1:2–3, representing the Law and the Prophets. The first speaks of the two children as two nations. The second was interpreted in contemporary Judaism to say God hated Esau because of his “bad deeds.” Paul rejects that interpretation by using the text to assert that God made the choice before birth, and thus before any performance of deeds.
Several things are noteworthy about Paul’s first argument. The distinction between ethnic Israel and true Israel is based on the principle of selection. God made choices from the beginning, as illustrated in the history of the patriarchs. In seven verses Paul has introduced the central patriarchs of Israel’s story—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—to ground divine election solely in the call of God, not on people’s deeds. This call theme is repeated throughout 9:6–29 (see vv. 24, 25, 26, in addition to vv. 7 and 11). Second, Paul has reintroduced one of the critical phrases in the letter, out of works. It is an important phrase in the developing argument (e.g., 9:32, 11:6). Out of works is contrasted here with out of calling, not with out of faith as earlier in the letter. The issue is the calling of God, not making righteous by faith. Paul rejects both salvation by birth (Isaac), and salvation by works (Jacob).
Election (i.e., salvation) is based solely on God’s call, and has been so from the beginning of Israel’s story. Third, election language here is corporate language, not individual. Paul is talking in salvation history terms: God chose a people through Isaac rather than Ishmael and through Jacob rather than Esau to be the people of the covenant and of promise.
Paul’s point is clear. Salvation is based exclusively on the call of God. God never promised to save all ethnic Israel, so the rejection of Messiah Jesus by the majority of Jews does not undermine the integrity of God’s word. Paul’s argument suggests that this rejection is a sign that Israel stands outside the Abrahamic covenant and thus the people of God. Israel now stands where Ishmael and Esau once stood.
--Toews, J. E. (2004). Romans. Believers church Bible commentary, Romans 9:6b-13
- crosseyedLv 69 years ago
everything that happened to israel was as an example to us as christians. so for today, it means that not all who claim to be christian are in fact christian.
you have addresses this question to jehovah's witnesses, who are one of the groups claiming to be christian when they are not. they preach doctrines of demons door to door, calling it christian. they stand opposed to actual christianity.
- 9 years ago