Is the ultimate achievement not to "mind"...?
not to mind whatever happens in the outer, in our relationships, our abilities, our moods, our circumstances? All of these are constantly changing...this is the nature of life. We cannot hold on to anything...it all slips out of our grasp in constant coming and going. But we have a choice whether to mind what is happening in this very moment. We can struggle against it, rue its seeming insufficiency, long for some other Now, rant, cry, withdraw...but this very Now reigns supreme and will not be tossed aside. Certainly the great masters have come to such a mindfulness that they abide in joyful acceptance of every moment...just as it is. What grace to remain unruffled, untouched by what we deem unfair, painful, messy, jumbled. Yet any and every experience is exquisite when we no longer take control with our judgments and attitudes and fears.
Surely the Buddha and Jesus were not above the experiences of life...perhaps flashes of anger and sadness at the state of the human condition came to them. But they did not dwell in the anger or sadness, or any other emotion or thought that arose...they did not "own" these thoughts and relate them to themselves, did not identify them with themselves. They did not "mind" whatever came, even the normal human emotions...but they did not purchase them and store them on a shelf marked "me." Rather, they knew who they were, their pure essence as one with all beings, and remained untouched as they encountered each experience.
We allow the mind to betray us and lead us away from our original nature, believing our random thoughts are unassailable truth. The ego is born in this forgetfulness, and we put it in charge of the thoughts we select as more important than others. Soon an intricate belief system is constructed, which takes on a life of its own. But if we don't mind, the multitude of thoughts that pass through us do not matter and, therefore, do not manifest into the illusion that results from this great enterprise.
Do you mind? Or are you mindful?
- JillLv 49 years agoBest Answer
This is an amazing question!
Yes, not to "mind", and not to identify with, are the ultimate essence of inner freedom.. They are unassailable spiritual truths. What else can take us into such enduring peace with such a simple awareness?
To be in a place where all thoughts, all feelings, all external factors arise without us "minding".
How freeing that is! Just to witness in a peaceful way. Not even to witness as an adverb or a doing word, but just to "be" the witness. To be in this place from where all is witnessed.
Thoughts and feelings, and the outer play of the world come and go, arise and fall back. It is the attention we give to them, and the stories we weave around them, that gives them their power to disturb us.
If we focus only on our own inner state, everything external comes and goes, as it wills, without disturbing our peace of mind.
The ultimate achievement would be one of not "minding".
Great question, there is so much wisdom wrapped around each word.
At one of his seminars, way back in the 70s, Krishnamurti said:
"Do you want to know my secret?"
"I don't mind what happens"
These words apparently brought a silence to the audience ...
He went on to try further, to bring light into what he had said, by saying:
"The description is not the described; I can describe the mountain, but the description is not the mountain, and if you are caught up in the description, as most people are, then you will never see the mountain"
He was saying it's not an easy concept to describe so as to be understandable .... but I think you have described it perfectly and beautifully here ....
with much love
:) :) :)
- YodaLv 69 years ago
When you say "Ultimate"- there is immediately the inference that, what ever it is you're seeking, it is beyond where you are now: e.g. the ultimate is always an ideal position..
The root of the word Ultimate is "Ulter", which is Latin for beyond. Beyond is from Old English "bi- (around) + -yond (that over there)". So the ultimate (what ever it is) is never here: never in the moment.
What you want is the ultimate achievement. The word "achieve" means "to come to ahead (a finish)"; achieve is from Latin "ad- (to) + caput" (head). What you are asking is: is there "a finished state, not here in the physical present, but somewhere else in the mental world of conceptions.
The idea of the ultimate achievement never meets what is happening now. If enlightenment for you means a finished state where there are never any problems; consequently, your life now seems inadequate. Physical problems will never go away, but mental one's disappear when all your attention is in doing something. If you are doing something that does not take all your attention, there is the propensity to divert some attention to mental movements.
There is no "exquisite experience", the phrase is an oxymoron: an experience is a memory of something that happened, not the thing that happened. You cannot physically seek an idea (an experience), the only answer to that quest will be a mental image.
To go beyond experience, you (egocentric thinking) have to stop (e.g. an end to idealizing), and your whole body must start physically doing things, in order to get a physical relationship to enjoy, not just an idea. Exquisite is Latin for "to trace a path outwards, to draw out." e.g. from the roots "ex- (out") + "quaerere" (to seek, to draw). If you want to "draw out" a past experience, and you are the thinker, the answer will only be made of thoughts. The answer will be simulated, artificial, un-natural.
There is an original nature? If you say yes, you will try to mentally seek it out; if you say no, you will feel free to fantasize within all your desires and fears. The end of that mental theater is not going to be found by seeking ideas: what is left to do??
Buddha and Jesus are no better than you. Putting them on some kind of pedestal (giving them authority) is pushing you down. You read this, you either accept or reject my statement, but you cannot accept or reject. YOU DO NOT NEED FIXING, there is nothing to reject or accept. The desire to fix yourself gives rise to the notion that Buddha/Jesus are role models. The answer is not going to be found with their words, with my words or with anyone elses words.
If I want an answer to the question: "how to I convert an *.mp3 file to an *.wmv file, I can go to an authority and get a technical answer. The brain is good for dealing with physical technical problems.
There is no answers to your questions as they are not technical questions: the questions you ask are built on an illusory premise. What use is being mindful, if that mind has no relationship to the senses?
Death means senseless. Having a mental "virtual" consciousness has no value when it is blind to the senses. Asking and pondering these questions is like masturbation: it is not the real thing.
- dartagnon pLv 69 years ago
I recently read something that made me "ponder". It was said that when we LEAVE the NOW, which is usually done when our minds wander to the past or the future, we makes mistakes. I noticed yesterday that I was trying to bring something into my room from another and yet as soon as I approached I would get sidetracked by an old memory and return to my room empty handed. I forced myself to stay in the NOW and was able to complete my mission with no problems.
Since then I have checked myself every time I get into a daze, and I find that I am bringing up something from the past or imagining what things will be in the future. Now I try to ignore my thoughts as much as possible and simply stay focused in the NOW. I'm amazed at how it makes SUCH a difference in my daily life and I no longer drift off of the road when I'm driving.
So NOW I make it a habit to NOT THINK ... and to remain in the NOW and pay attention to what is going on around me. As long as I can keep my brain out of it I can stay focused. ALSO, I make it a point to avoid FEAR at all costs! BUT, by eliminating fear and staying in the NOW I find that my life is less cumbersome and so much more FUN!!
- tayaLv 49 years ago
Well, I can't say for sure that it is 'ultimate'. I won't say 'not to mind'. Rather I'd say, 'to be mindful'. The Buddha says to be mindful. Not to be mindless. In order to be mindful one must have mind in the first place. Mind is needed. Indeed it is of utmost importance. To be mindless is to be stupid. Surely the Buddha cannot mean or want that. The Giver gave us mind for a purpose. But sometimes it is said to drop the mind. I am not entirely in agreement with this. How can you be mindful if you drop the mind? My understanding is that the ultimate of this process of mastery is to regain control of mind. Not to kill it, not to destroy it, but to observe and fully understand its workings, to tame it and ultimately to be its master so that it listens to you and obeys your commands. The Buddha understood that man had been subdued by mind, so much so that the mind had become the master. Man was running around all his life trying to please mind. Mind wanted this and that. Man became so materialistic. Ego which is the product of mind was destroying man. He saw clearly that man did not have any real control over life. Life is unsatisfactory because it is subject to old age, disease and death. He clearly saw the unsatisfactoriness of life. He saw that life is actually a continuum. It is not an isolated existence. He realised that life goes no an on, even before birth and after death. Only the form, the shell, changes. He meditated, went into the very max of meditation. Finally, he found an answer. I won't say 'the' answer because some people may get offended. He saw that mind was the culprit. Mind was making man do all sorts of things. But mind was needed. So he decided to train mind to obey commands. This he did through right knowledge, right understanding and right deeds. He achieved the whole lot through meditation. So, my friend, get hold of mind, but don't think of it as 'my' mind. Simply as mind. Observe its workings. Subdue it. Be its master. Take control and use it as your weapon for salvation.
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- leather mallLv 69 years ago
The purpose of having the human birth is to transcend our mind (which includes memory, intelligence and ego). Since the world we see is through the perceptual screen of our mind, this mind is the only obstacle between us and divinity. If we can silence the mind, annihilate the mind, surrender the mind, transcend the mind, then we can achieve what we call divine love, which is uninterrupted and unmotivated.service to all those whose lives we touch.
Then we shall cross beyond the duality, that is, heat-cold, joy-sorrow, honor-dishonor, etc
Then we shall be on the path that Buddha and Jesus followed and recommended.
- 9 years ago
Ultimate achievement is not to "mind"
Lord Krishna explains this in Bhagavad-gita in chapter 13 verses 20-22
Material nature causes all material changes and effects, and the living entity meets with good and bad according to the qualities that he has acquired due to his association with material nature. (20 22) ]
prakrtim purusam caiva, viddhy anadi ubhav api
vikarams ca gunams caiva, viddhi prakrti sambhavan
Material nature and the living entities should be under¬stood to be beginningless. Their transformations and the modes of matter are products of material nature.
Here the main point to understand is that the transforma¬tions (vikaran) are not of the living entities but it is of the material nature.
karya karana kartrtve, hetuh prakrtir ucyate
purusah sukha duhkhanam, bhoktrtve hetur ucyate
Nature is said to be the cause of all material causes and effects, whereas the living entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world.
This is addressing the question about "who is the doer?"
The living entity is the one who is causing all these troubles through his illicit desires. And he is also causing his enjoy¬ments. But actually is the material nature, the prak working under the control of the three modes of material nature who is enacting everything.
The living entity is desiring and getting karma, and in that sense he is the doer. Then the modes of material nature cause the transformations in the field, which cause the suffering and enjoyment of the living entities identified with matter. All this is done under the sanction of the real purusa, the Supersoul.
Shastra describes the material nature as the cause of the different transformations. In verse 21, the living entity is said to be the cause of his sufferings and enjoyments. And in the next verse, explains how the living entity becomes associated with matter and thus enjoys or suffers.
purusah prakrti stho hi, bhunkte prakrti jan gunan
karanam guna sango 'sya, sad asad yoni janmasu
The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species.
This verse is very important. It describes how the living entity who is ksetrajna (who, although described here as purusa is actually prakriti) gets trapped within ksetra.
It shows a 'phony purusa' who thinks he is the enjoyer of his little ksetra, but actually this ksetra is the field for his suffering.
Due to the desire to enjoy, the living entity takes shelter in matter (sad asad yoni janmasu). Therefore he takes birth in good and bad species of life, life after life. This identifica¬tion goes on and on until he meets a devotee. Then his desire to enjoy will become weakned and then he can become liberated from that.
This all confirms that ultimate is not mind. Mind is the instrument from which desires of the soul are presented (manifested).
So ultimate is the soul.Source(s): Bhagavad-gita as it is
- clapticLv 69 years ago
This is my guiding light concerning the workings of the mind:
"Having become indifferent to objects of perception, the pupil must seek out the rajah of the senses, the Thought-Producer, he who awakes illusion.
The Mind is the great Slayer of the Real.
Let the Disciple slay the Slayer."
- Christian MLv 69 years ago
We are always able to play in the mind and that is where we most often live our lives. But Here and Now are Substantial and Ultimate in Itself. It is not something to be achieved by realized. We don't 'get it' as we get a diamond nor do we 'get it' as we understand an idea but rather we 'get it' as we realize it has always been, will always be, What Is, the Substance upon which every appearance rests.
- fractalLv 79 years ago
i'd like to say that i am mindful rather than that i mind, alas, there is a great deal that i mind, i mind that there are bankers (my hubby is working for one of them at the moment) who get forty thousand pounds as a bonus, that's on top on their obscene annual salary, when they created an irresponsible, uncalled for and insane mess for the rest of the population, i mind that in this day and age there are children, in some of the wealthiest nations of our beautiful and neglected globe, living below the poverty line, i mind that there are elderly people having to decide whether to heat or to eat, i mind that some horrid looking little black slimy pest is devouring one of my dahlias, as we speak, oh, i could go on and on, i really could, but i won't, i wouldn't wish to disturb anyone's sense of equilibrium with my extended little rants. i'd like instead to fill my mind and my heart with the good ideas and the will to turn all that 'minding' i'm doing into a good and positive and effective plan.
anyway, apologies for the tone of my reply and thank you for your post which is a lovely reminder to me of how great the distance between what ought to be and what actually is in my life, lol!
- cavassiLv 79 years ago
The Master said, "A man who has mindfulness, when he sits, he knows he is sitting, and when he stands, he knows he is standing." Mindfulness does not mean you never get angry, but that you know when you are angry and live in that moment; it does not mean you are never anxious, but that you know you are anxious, and live in that moment. To be or not to be becomes the same - experience.