DS: Dog Show question!?
Please inform the ignorant!
I was thinking about this yesterday after my question about working abilities vs. looks/form
And they had some clip on TV last night on a dog show, I usually dont watch those...so I'm not too familiar with what happens.
I saw a judge come to the dog...look at his teeth....grab his balls...ears...etc.
And this is what occurred to me...If you have a dog who's function/working ability requires it to be wary of strangers and a little defensive...how would that dog react in a show...when some stranger starts poking it ?
Would the breeder take away from the working ability in order to show that dog?
- Anonymous9 years agoFavorite Answer
A dog in the show ring proves NOTHING as far as its temperament or working ability, its just a beauty pageant for dogs.
There are breeds out there that CANNOT be touched because of GENETIC temperament issues and judges in other countries respect that and ask the handler to show them what they want to see, from 20 feet away. Being able to be touched by a total stranger is NOT an indication or a good temperament, especially if the standard calls for against it.
I see one of esteemed contributors mentioned something about vet checks, I put a muzzle on my dog at the vet's office, before we walk in, that way I need not worry about anything. There is no way I am taking a Fila for example to the vet without a muzzle on, but, I am digressing...
The show ring is not what the people who show in it want to make everyone else believe, its just a beauty show with no substance and if we depended on those dogs to produce our next generation of working animals, we would all be screwed...I know, I had that argument last night. Hope I helped.Source(s): Realist
- ChixLv 69 years ago
I agree with Greekman. Asking a dog like a Doberman to stand prone, legs apart, and have a strangers grope their testicles without the dog moving is not only counter to what a dog should accept, its stupid. My males would not have tolerated this and I would not expect them to.
Don't think for a minute that some breeders will not resort to having cosmetic surgery done to insert a ball when one did not descend. There is a great deal at stake in these shows..and (some) breeders are not above taking short cuts.
Its the reason Dobermans (NA Show bred) and GSD have (generally) become complete wimps...incapable of work, and as useful for guarding as a Labrador retriever.
This could be easily eliminated if the CKC/AKC required a vet certificate for in-tact males and females stating they are "whole". And people that argue this is just more expense are just making excuses - right now, where I live, its the law you license your pet with the city and to get a discount (if the dog is spayed or neutered) you must produce a vet note.
My vet did it free of charge. If the CKC/AKC are in the business of promoting pure-bred dogs, then they should include some actual qualifications upon registering - right now, you can register a dead dog and I defy anyone to tell me the CKC would know the difference.
Examining the bite and mouth - well, that can be done by the handler holding the dogs mouth open so I'm OK with that.
As was mentioned in another thread a while ago, the whole NA system of groping, fondling and touching could be eliminated if dogs were simply measured. This is a standard in any livestock evaluation and its done in Europe. There is no need for a judge to "pat" a dog on the back to test topline - a dog's reflex is to tighten up any slightly roach its back ...so it doesn't prove anything.
My current female is tolerant of people, but aloof and "aloof" is not accepting total strangers manhandling their dogs. It is NOT meaningful to prance a dog around a ring, and cock its head for a liver treat.
The entire context of showing dogs in NA has moved so far from what is purposeful - its not just the judging...its the fact show persons routinely use hair spray, chalk and other cosmetic substances to pretty up their charges is telling ...having persons parading around in evening gowns and tuxes has NOTHING to do with a good working dog. It is a glorified beauty pageant..and nothing more.
Add: I also muzzle my dogs at the vet. I also check the waiting room before I enter with my dog to make sure there are no out of control dogs ...and then get my dog from the car.
Years ago they used to routinely spar terriers as part of evaluation in show rings...now we have American Cocker spaniels with silky long coats that couldn't work a minute in the field.
As far as Cane Corso and Fila's...well I wouldn't own the breed - and what constitutes "stable" is a whole other topic. The Doberman of the 1800's was quite ill tempered and would have never got from the car to the ring without nailing every dog and handler on the way. It was quite frankly a vicious dog. We've grown a bit since then and realize a guarding dog must demonstrate some reasonable tolerance for society - or it cannot belong.
There are degrees of acceptable in the 21st century..and in my opinion, the Fila, Presa and some others are not a dog (yet) suited for life in the civilized world. I dont want them in my neighborhood - or in the country .
THe standard posted here for a Fila confirms what I have believed. Other countries standards are far from NA urban living.. and international dog ownership is not a given.
TD if you want....and then ask yourself if you want to have your dog stand beside one in the show ring.
- lucasLv 59 years ago
There's a few different types of showing, conformation, trial, agility etc. Each type has it's own set of expectations for judging.
I show Conformation. It is expected that a Conformation dog will have two descended testicles, a judge will need to check these, if they don't they are disqualified, that's part of the whole point of a Conformation dog, to be able to reproduce. The ears need to be of correct set and when touched as any other part of the dogs body, shows it's temperament, another side that comes into the whole of a good dog, not just there for looks, but soundness all over.
My dogs were of good temperament, could be touched all over, be handled by strangers, that's what makes a dog worthy of breeding. If a dog grizzles, growls or tries to bite a judge for touching it in the ring then it is not worthy of breeding from, it will lose points.
If it is an agility etc dog show it will not be tested the same as the Conformation dog. What you saw was a Conformation dog show.
To some extent you may say a handler might not exploit the ability of the inherited instinct of the dog to show, but you don't know what they do with their dog at home.
I have Labs, show them for Conformation, but I still take them swimming, doesn't mean I let them drag in nets from the fishing boats in Newfoundland, but I still let them do what they were originally bred for, swim!
- 4 years ago
Cool. I'm headed to Waukesha in few hours myself to cheer for the Sammies and take loads of pics. I'm not showing so I don't need to worry about as much. (but that doesn't mean I'm not procrastinating like it's going out of style in the packing department) I don't show... yet. So, I don't have much to answer. 4) What breed, other than the one you show, do you enjoy watching the most? Samoyeds 5) Is there a lot of grooming you do before a show? Mine don't show in conformation, but if I travel for a show they get groomed before going to my parents house. I'd say about an hour's worth. 7) When traveling far for a show, do you stay in an RV, hotel, or other? Camp. I will only stay in a hotel if there isn't a place to camp close enough or if it's winter. 9) What's the longest trip you've ever made for a show? Will be driving from WI to TN for the Samoyed Nationals (and to hit up a few Rally-O trials on the way) 10) Am I the only one who finds that I pack more for my dog than for myself???? I can't recall a trip I've taken with either of my dogs when I didn't wonder HOW a dog can require so much STUFF!
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- 9 years ago
If a dog is being exhibited in the breed ring then the owner/handler or handler is responsible for suppressing the dominant characteristics of the breed to the extent that it is safe for the judge to go over the dog.
Agree that it is the case that a judge may ask the handler to show the bite [at an open show where in the breed ring the judge asked me to show the bite - fine - then with wary hands went over the dog. His body language & tone of voice wreaked with nerves which was communicated to the dogs, & dog that had never backed off in the show careers were not uncomfortable near him.
As it bears repetition & is pertinent, the breed ring is only a nominal test of temperament & zero of a dog potential to be trained to do the type of work it was originally created to do.
In my breed of choice, the Dobermann, too many show kennels have been watering down the drives & dominant characteristics & breeding for soft, placid easy going temperaments, to create a Labra-Dobe that is a working breed in name only.
- WyrDachsieLv 79 years ago
Well, first of all, the dogs that are entered in shows are trained. Dogs are not stupid, they know when they are at a show and what the routine is.
No, you don't take away working ability because you show that dog.
My dogs know what we are doing that particular day, they know the difference if we're hunting or at an agility trial or at a breed show.
If a dog doesn't move correctly, it can't do the job it was bred for.
Whats the diffrence in taking a "working" dog to the vet, where he poked and prodded. My dogs are expected to tolerate that also.
- 9 years ago
The dog should also be under the handler's control and guidance. Therefore if the handler tells the dog to stay and be examined, it should stay and follow instructions. The dogs are trained in advance to accept (not necessarily like or appreciate) such handling.
That said, I've read that in Brazil the judge is NOT required to examine breeds such as the Fila Brasiliero, and in fact if the dog accepts the judge's handling is it considered to be of improper temperament. Don't know if that's true or not.
- MaxiLv 79 years ago
You get show dogs and your get working dogs..............generally..........and yes many show only dogs are bred which does take away the natural ability and BCs are very obvious ones in the ring for this...........I do have BCs and they are Champions in several working disaplines and I have put them in the breed ring and they did OK but it just isn't their 'thing' or mine for them ....judges expect a dog to stand and allow them to handle a dog in the way they want and they would lose marks and not be placed if they don't.............a very personal opinion judges need training on their body language they expect dogs to walk directly towards them ( aggressive behaviour in the dog world), they lean over a dog ( very stupid to lean over any dog you don't know) as you say they open their mouths, holding their face very close to the dog statring at them ( all agressive in the dog world).......good breed handlers teach their dogs to open their mouth on request, practice with others handling their dogs and many who show dogs soon stop showing when their dog doesn't show correctly...................I would never buy a breed show BC...I like the attitude and strong working ability and there are very few breed dogs who have that to the extent I want.
I also have mini poodles, again they work to the gun, swim etc and in full show coat which is a nightmare, they have a completely different attitude...both mine are agility,flyball, obedience and breed international champions...are perfect poodles in the breed ring stand and are messed around with without a second glance and great working dogs...and one, my youngest is fablous bringing in the geese or sheep, she is a match for the collies and works increadably well....and makes the frmer laugh when I tell them I will bring my poodle round to bring their sheep in...once seen , never forgotten and she has changed many peoples opinion on poodles and their ability...............so it is not just my ability ( or lack of it) with showing v. working dogs as if the poodles will do it the BC would and visa versa...it is the breed that is different
Breed showing and judging is something I did lots of research on a few years ago and I have about 150 hours of judging taped and you really wouldn't believe how much bad/poor body language and direct aggression ( in the dogs eyes) that some judges display
- CHAO§:Lv 79 years ago
For breeds like that, judges ask the handler to show the bite. Judges are also not suppose to make eye contact, although I am not sure about that one. The dogs should be able to handle a judge going over them or they would not be showing them.
A breeder shouldn't take away from the working ability.
- 9 years ago
Ok, first, we don't "let some stranger poke" our dogs. Judges work their way up through the ranks of "dog people" by being long time "dog people" themselves, they know how to handle dogs, any judge that "pokes" or mishandles dogs doesn't get entries, it's that simple. On the other hand, any dog, working lines or not, should be stable enough to live in society. Period. They HAVE to work with humans and around humans in some way or another no matter what "job" they were bred to do.
That said, good breeders breed for stable temperaments that will accept the owner as the leader and will allow a physical exam. These examinations aren't any more invasive than any vet needs to do on a regular basis to assess the health and well being of our dogs.
If your "working" dog can not be trusted around humans what good is he?
That said, I have been showing Afghan Hounds in conformation AND field trials for more than 20 years, they are supposed to be aloof with strangers, they HAVE to be stable enough to be handled.
That's what good breeders breed for.Source(s): 30+ years pro dog groomer, trainer, exhibitor, hobby breeder