bible questions! on jesus as god?
I just need some clarification from someone who is not jehovah witness. My friend is JW and wants to know the following.note they dont believe in the trinity and jehovah is the almighty god, not jesus.
OK so if jesus is god why does he pray to the father? and make the apostles pray to the father?
Why does it say in scripture that jesus will sit beside god in heaven if they are the same person?
Why does it say no man will see the face of god, when people saw jesus.?
Basically he thinks the trinity confuses people and things dont make sense. John 1:1 is his main argument saying it doesnt make sense, because god doesnt have a beginning, he wasnt created, but once its changed to the word was a god..... it makes sense as jesus was created by his father.
So frustrating trying to reason with a JW!!
- Anonymous10 years agoFavorite Answer
Actually, Witnesses think that it is very frustrating to try to reason with a Trinitarian. When you talk with a Witness all you have to do is accept the Bible for what it says. But, with Trinitarians you have to suspend all logic and ignore every explicit Scripture.
Witnesses provide as evidence for the accuracy of their interpretations explicit Scripture statements and standard word definitions from lexicons. On the other hand, Trinitarians give us specious philosophy, metaphysical double speak and contradictory statements.
Even Trinitarian scholars themselves admit that the Trinity cannot be logically explained and that no one can really understand it.
". . . the Trinity is an unintelligible proposition of platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three" --Thomas Jefferson
"The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by logic or by scriptural proofs."--Hastings Dict. of The Bible, Revised edition by F.C. Grant & H.H. Rowley
" None of us can understand it. It's a divine mystery."--H. M. S. Richards, in a Voice of Prophecy Radio Broadcast
“One of the great marvels of Christian history has been the ability of theologians to convince Christian people that three persons are really one God." “The God of Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and the apostles was one person, *the Father*. One cannot be made equal to two or three. All that can be done with one is to fractionalize it. Divide it into smaller segments and it is no longer one. Expand it, and in spite of prodigious mental gymnastics on the part of Trinitarians, it cannot be made into two or three and still remain one."--The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting
"What it is to be "with the God" and also to "be God" may well be treated as a mystery too deep for the human mind to solve".—M.S. Terry; Biblical Hermeneutics
When all is said and done the Trinity remains an unexplainable and incomprehensible "mystery." It is exactly what Jesus said was wrong with the Samaritans: "you worship what you do not know." The Samaritans worshiped the True God but they mixed their worship with Babylonish false religion (Jn 4:22, 23).
Christendom is in a similar situation as the Samaritans, they have mixed their worship with pagan mysticism and Greek philosophies. The result is that the ‘incomprehensible mystery’ of the Trinity prevents them from really knowing God.
"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God)...Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."--The Encyclopedia Americana 1956
"The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are Greek philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The Trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."--Dictionary Of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie
"Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything."-Robert A. Heinlein
On the other hand, the Bible is very clear: "Now this is eternal life, that they should KNOW you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (Jn.17:3). And "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live" (1Cor.8:6).
When we listen to what the Scriptures are saying they are very clear in telling us the relationship and roles of God, his Son and God’s holy spirit. The Bible never contradicts nor confuses with incomprehensible doctrines like the trinity. The apostle John said that “the Son of God . . . has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one [Jehovah God]. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ.”—1 John 5:20.
The Bible teaches us that the Father, Jehovah, alone is Almighty God, Jesus Christ is His created Son, and the holy spirit is not a person but God’s active force (Ps. 83:18; Acts 2:4; Col.1:15; Rev.3:14).
God, the father, is our Creator the Source of all life (Rev.4:11) “the Most High over all the earth” and Universal Sovereign (Psalm 36:9; 83:18; 2 Kings 19:15). He is the Supreme Law-Giver and ultimate judge (Isa.33:22; Rev.15:3, 4).
Jesus is the begotten devine Son of God. His name means “Jehovah Is Salvation” (Mat.16:16; Col.1:15, 16). We must recognize Christ’s office and authority to gain salvation. He is the one through whom God has provided a ransom to save mankind (Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim.2:5, 6). Because Jesus died faithful, God resurrected him from the dead and gave him new authority“exalting him to a superior position.” To please God we must acknowledge Christ as our Lord (Php.2:9-11) Jesus is Jehovah’s “Faithful Witness” and has been appointed “King of kings.” (Rev.1:5; 19:16). This means we must obey Jesus’ commandments since he is God’s representative (Jn 15:10; 1 Tim.2:5). Christ is also our Leader because he gave us a pattern to follow in how we live our life (1Pet.2:21). This is the definition of being “Christian.”
The holy spirit or “wind” is Jehovah’s active force, with which he accomplishes his purposes (Acts 1:8; Jn.14:16, 17). God sends this force to inspire Bible writers, and so forth. (Gen.1:2; 2 Sam. 23:1, 2; 2 Pet.1:21) This force is also sent by God to give us guidance and strength to do what is right (Gal.5:22, 23). Jehovah’s spirit is vital in order to comprehend “the deep things of God” and display the godly fruitage of “love, joy, peace, faith, etc” (1 Cor.2:10). God’s spirit is needed to carry on the Kingdom-preaching work (Joel 2:28, 29). The spirit of God energizes men to speak his message of truth boldly and courageously (Mic 3:8).
The holy spirit is God’s “free gift,” which he gladly grants to those who sincerely seek and request it. (Ac 2:38; Lu 11:9-13) A right heart is the key factor (Ac 15:8), but knowledge and conformity to God’s requirements are also essential factors. (Compare Ac 5:32; 19:2-6.) Once received, the Christian should not ‘grieve’ God’s spirit by disregarding it (Eph 4:30; Isa 63:10), or taking a course contrary to its leading and its counsel to oneself. (Ac 7:51-53; 1Th 4:8; compare Isa 30:1, 2.)
The fact that Jesus is not God almighty is a very clear and explicit teaching in the Bible. Every scripture which says that Jesus has a God clearly proves that Jesus cannot be Almighty God. The Bible speaks of Jesus having a God over him at least 17 times even after he returned to heaven! (Mic.5:4; Jn.20:17; Rom.15:6; Heb.1:9; 1Pt.1:3; Rev.1:6; 3:2,12).
Could it ever be said that Almighty God has a God? Not without imaginative equivocation and contradiction.
True Christians accept Christ's own words when he says "The Father is greater than I" (Jn.14:28).
Jesus plainly said that he did not know what Almighty God knew on earth or in heaven (Mk.13:32; Mat 20:23).
Even when Jesus is as high as he will ever get 1Cor.15:27,28 shows that Jesus will still be "subject" to his God in the same way we are "subject" to him (See RSV).
EVERY explicit statement in Scripture shows that Jesus was less than Almighty God at every point of his existence.
Conversely, EVERY Trinitarian "proof text" requires an ignorance of context and Hebrew and Greek grammar. Every text Trinitarians cite requires that an interpretation be "read into" the scripture which contradicts the Biblical teaching.
Hope that helps,
- Abu BakrLv 510 years ago
JW are the closest of Christian sects to Islam. Many things in Christianity don't make sense, that's why many Christians are leaving Christianity and converting to Islam. And in the Bible, you will find many contradictions.
Jesus is not God, he is a messenger of God.
John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.
Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him “good,” asking him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”
John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I.”
Almighty God is absolutely One and His Oneness should never be compromised by associating partners with Him - neither in worship nor in belief.
God that Muslims worship is the same God that Jews and Christians worship - because there is only one God.
Muslims believe that all of God's prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism.
Here are some good videos if you are interested:
Top 10 reasons why Jesus Christ Isn't God (Using the Bible)
True Gospel of Jesus Christ with Former Christian Youth Minister
How Bible Led American Christian to Convert to Islam (part 1/6)
- 10 years ago
The trinity is the three in one.
God the father, God the Son, and God the holy spirit
First off... the way to absolutely crush the idea that there is NO trinity, bring up to them the verses in the new testimont where Jesus tells his disciples that He is going to ascend into heaven, but He will send another. The comforter. That right there proves the holy spirit...
and even Jesus says, if you have no part of me, you have no part of my father in heaven.
Which is a big way to say, hey... Jesus is God.
Tell your friend to read the book: "The Shack"
It's life-changing on how you think of the trinity.
- Anonymous10 years ago
First off Jesus was not created but begotten. Jesus is the Son of God but not God the Father but God the Son. The problem i see with JW's is they expect us to be able to explain a Mystery of Heaven with the minds of a human. JW's are only a newer version of the ancient Arian beliefs just type in Arian beliefs in your search engine. A lot of people in fact i would say 99% of today's Christians are not aware that the Arian Church was almost as big as the Catholic Church and existed for around 800 yrs. There were other groups in the past before JW's that taught similar as they teach about Jesus. If your not well educated in Biblical knowledge and Christian History your batting your head against a rock trying to reason with them as they are convinced their right and are trained to ignore others views that disagree with their teachings.
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- Don DarkeauLv 610 years ago
Jesus is not only the son of God, but he is the one "face" of God that can be seen by the people as God's representative. It enables God to be present on Earth, in the form of his Son, Jesus.
I would not try to reason with your JW friend. Your friend believes in a different doctrine and it would be difficult to shake that belief. Each to his own.
- crosseyedLv 610 years ago
they've got a dozen scriptures to prove that jesus is this archangel michael.
the reasoning goes like -
an archangel leads the armies of heaven
jesus leads the army of heaven
therefore jesus is michael.
fair reasoning. ignores the fact that the archangel was sent by jesus in matthew 24, but still fair reasoning.
now, if you present the same logic to show that jesus is god, they will not use the same reasoning, but will argue the point.
why would you do that? surely logic is not dependent on the subject. if the logic is sound why agree in one case but argue in another?
we can bring literally hundreds of scriptures showing jesus is god. more than can fit in a yahoo answers post. even from their biased nwt.
jehovah alone is savior.
jesus alone is savior.
therefore jesus is jehovah.
jehovah is the good shepherd.
jesus is the good shepherd
therefore jesus is jehovah.
jehovah is the first and the last
jesus is the first and the last.
therefore jesus is jehovah
etc x 100s of examples.
where does michael share all these attributes with jesus? did he ever say "i and the archangel michael are one"? "if you have seen me you have seen the archangel michael"?
what about the apostles who knew jesus personally. which of them called jesus the archangel michael? no. thomas called him lord and god, and was blessed for his insight.
don't think that they are reasoning with you. they are trying to persuade you. different thing.
they are trained to ask leading questions. their founder was a salesman who sold "miracle wheat", and the 2nd president was a lawyer who claimed to be a judge. can you tell when you speak to them?
you can defeat all their arguments by simply asking what authority they have to say such things.
they claim that jesus came and appointed them to be the "faithful and discreet slave" over all his belongings in 1919, because they alone were preaching truth of food at the proper time.
if you look at what they were preaching, their food was that the archangel michael is the pope, jesus returned invisibly in 1874, christendom will die in the streets in their millions in 1918, and the great beast leviathan is a steam locomotive..
since none of this is true, why do they claim that jesus came and approved it as true?
and if jesus didn't approve it as true, it must be a lie.
and if it is a lie, why accept what they say about jesus not being god. should you trust the proven liar?
- Anonymous10 years ago
The long term road to God goes past the person known to be Jesus, however Jesus was the closest thing to God that could be manifested for the eyes of men to see.
Jesus said "when you see me you've seen the father". God did NOT say I am the father.Source(s): http://urantiabook.org/newbook/index.html
- 10 years ago
It is so frustrating to argue with the truth, isn't it?
Then why not just accept that your friend is absolutely right in his/her reasonings?
Nowhere in the entire Bible is the Trinity even mentioned, nor does it ever say that Jesus is God.
He is the Son of God
- Anonymous10 years ago
in the begining was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word is God.
Jesus is the Word
ask your friend to salute the American Flag,
bet you $100, if he is a true JW, he won't do it.....
- Anonymous10 years ago
Jesus is the son of God.
- Ginosko92Lv 610 years ago
It's frustrating to reason with JW and you can't even defend your own doctrine!? Interesting!