Mormons: Why are you in a church where the founder (Joseph Smith) thinks he's better then Jesus?
I'm not trying to upset anyone or cause tension. this is a real question that i am nicely asking to those of you who are mormon aka LDS.
I'm agnostic. Which means i don't really know if i believe there is a God. But i'm not saying he/she doesn't exist....
-My neighbors are LDS- and have been trying to get me and my mom into the LDS church. Before i get into anything,i like to investigate. And honestly i'm curious into wondering if there really is a God and if someone it can be proven to me.
Well i was looking online about Joseph Smith. So was my mom and she came across some website called ''What mormons don't want you to know'' or something... Anyway here's a quote we both read and i have the actual book where it's written in my hands as i type (i got it from the library under mormon history)
Quote by Joseph Smith,''I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I Am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jesus ever did it. I Boast that no man ever did such work as I. The Followers of Jesus ran away from him; But the Latter-day saints never ran away from me yet.'' --That's just part of what i read. --So i have a few questions. I thought in your church people aren't suppose to boast? And to me,if Jesus is real i think he's done more for all men then Joseph can even begin to do. --Just in my view,it almost sounds like he highers himself from Jesus. Maybe i'm miss reading things. I'm just going off from what i read in that part and from the book.
--So how has Joseph done more for people then even Christ?
And why does he boast so much about himself?
If you want to read this yourself the book is called: History Of The Church; Period 1 Joseph Smith,Vol. 6. Page 409
btw i live in utah. Pretty much everyone is mormon. St.George utah to be exactly. At every library in town there is a mormon church history section.
I'm not trying to bash JS or the church. The only reason i was even posting this is again,my neighbors are LDS. Trying to get me and my mom with it. yes i am agnostic at this moment. But i am open to facts that God could exist. I was asking this question because i don't want to get into the wrong church (if i decide to get invloved more) and get miss guided into something that isn't right. I barley know anything about church and God etc. That's why i was asking this. To get better insight and to know if what i was reading was true or if i was miss understanding something.
-From what i have always been told,Jesus was a man just like us all. Just chosen by God. Again i don't know much about this stuff. hence why i'm trying to do research and give a shot at some proof of God.
- Anonymous1 decade agoFavorite Answer
Imitating Paul, that's a good one. I've never heard that spin before. A terrible misunderstanding of Paul.
The answer, Hanna, to your VERY good question is that Joseph Smith had a huge ego and got carried away at times. There is some evidence that he suffered from a mental disorder like Bipolar Disorder and saying stuff like that would certainly fit that diagnosis. So would his hypersexuality, deciding he was a general, running for the US presidency, declaring a pile of rocks in Missouri to be an altar built by Adam, saying people live on the moon and are dressed like Quakers, and on and on. Keep up investigating the LDS church and you will see it is very very whack.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Make a video tape. Give me that video tape. Tell me (maybe even pay me) to make you look like a fool. Don't worry about it. I will be able to do it. Using some editing tricks, put some music and what not, I could take what you say and do out of context. It can be done. Anyone can be made to look like a fool, or a bad guy, if that is what you want to do.
This happened to Jesus Christ while he was alive. He was accused of working on the Sabbath. (He was healing people, hardly a violation of the commandment not to work on the Sabbath.) For many years there was a controversy between Judaism and Christianity. The Jews who opposed Christianity often used this same technique against Jesus to make him look bad, even after he died.
So it is a very good thing that the Apostles published his words and works, and so that we can put these things in context.
Have you ever noticed that Anti-Mormons never say anything good About The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints?
Or they will say that Mormons are nice people, good neighbors and all that, but the theology is this and that, wrong evil and crazy?
Honestly, how could it be that friendly neighborly people could believe in something that was crazy, evil, and just plain wrong?
Maybe because the theology is in fact NOT evil, or wrong, or crazy whatsoever. Maybe because the Theology is good, righteous, and compassionate. Akim's razor: The simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation.
Life is about choices. But God who loves you does not leave you like a sheep for the clever wolves to devour and lead you astray with subtle false teachings.
NO. The Lord God of Israel will lead you to the promised land. The Shepherd, Jesus Christ, will do this, if you do what the Children Of Israel did who followed Moses out of Egypt did. Follow the Prophet, for he will lead you to the land flowing with milk and honey.
And how will you know who is the true Prophet?
You will read his words, not just off the wall excerpts clipped by the enemies, of all that is righteous and holy, and then you will pray about it. You are a daughter of God, and if you choose to follow Jesus Christ and his Apostles and his Prophets you can.
Because you can pray to God with real intent, and God will give you the true answer. This is the still small voice that warms your heart. That is how you can discern
Heaven's Heaven is a place that you belong in. In St. George there is a Temple of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.
Afford yourself the opportunity to go there. There is a visitors center there, you can watch movies or just ask questions. Missionaries there will help guide you to the promised land of peace and happiness.
Go to your LDS neighbors. Ask them if you could be with them when they have family home evening. This is when you will see what Mormons are really like. And then you will feel the spirit. And then you will know all the details are just that, details.
And the important truth is that God loves you, and you are his cherished daughter, and he has established his Church here so that you can climb the stair way to Heaven, and enjoy a full measure of happiness in this life, and in the Heavenly life to come.
- j pLv 61 decade ago
Joseph Smith was well versed in the Book of Mormon, he translated it and published it, and studied it to the day he died. He had a unique opportunity of being able to hold the church together for the most part during his life. I have read to much of his writings to be convinced that Joseph Smith thought he was better than Jesus. If he did then he wouldn't have prayed daily with his family and taught them to revere Him. Joseph wouldn't have requested hymns about Him within an hour of his death. I believe he would be very disappointed if anyone thought that he was better than his Lord. I also think that he might have changed his mind because some of the men in the mob that killed him were men that he had known and who were once his friends and brothers.
Did Joseph Boast? Yes, Ammon in the Book of Mormon (Alma 26:12) "Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever." Phrog has pointed out the intended similarity with Paul. Paul actually boasted quite a lot and warned quite a lot about boasting, so apparently there is good and bad boasting.
What did he boast of? He boasted that Christ had allowed him the unique opportunity of leading a group of Christians that were faithful for the most part.Source(s): Do Mormons not want you to know about this? If we didn't want you to know about it why would we put it in our official history?
- Anonymous1 decade ago
You're taking this out of context and missing that first of all as a prophet of Christ his actions for Christ can't be at odds with Christ. Second of all Jesus wasn't a man, He was/is a God.
So you are missing something from the context. You're asserting that we must think that he though he was better than Jesus Christ, when everything he wrote revealed the opposite. Without exception every other quote besides that misunderstood (or mistranscribed - he didn't write that so we don't know what he said) makes the opposite point abundantly clear.
I don't know of anybody in our church who thinks that, we have all of our scripture to stand together and make it clear that he never stated what you assume and frequently stated the opposite. His point is an interesting one - despite persecution the church that Christ organized through him didn't scatter at his death but remained steady and grew to a major world religion while the other examples he pointed out, the people failed to remain strong.
As a starting point let's consider the first published revelation to Joseph Smith in what is currently section 3 of the Doctrine and Covenants contains a berating warning to Joseph Smith about how he will fail and be destroyed if he's not careful - that's Jesus talking to him, not the other way around.
Prior to that day he was seeking salvation for his soul, which was why he decided to pray in the first place - does that sound like somebody who thinks he's above God?
After that he wrote scores of things asserting his reliance on Jesus Christ including a fitting revelation from Liberty Jail after listing the persecutions he had to endure with the words "the Son of Man descended below all these things, art thou greater than he?" with the clear and ringing answer a definitive no.
At no point in his life did he ever give any real inclination that he felt that way - the evidence is stacked against your assumption in dramatic fashion.
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- rrosskopfLv 71 decade ago
Have you ever heard the expression whistling in a graveyard? Joseph felt betrayed by some of his closest associates, and needed some cheering up. He counted his blessings and realized that he had much to be grateful for. Joseph wasn't arrogant at all. He was the type of man who played with children, and wrestled with athletes, and had a wry sense of humor. He was the type of man to let strangers stay in his house, just because they needed a place to stay.
- mormon_4_jesusLv 71 decade ago
He didn't say he was better than Jesus, he said that he was able to keep the church together better than Jesus did, and while he may not have been right to boast, he was right.
Jesus even said "(John 14:12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
- 1 decade ago
as the phrog has indicated - joseph smith was merely imitating paul the apostle in trying to point out that those listening may be giving more credence to the words of others than of himself - an apostle of God.
- phrogLv 71 decade ago
we have to ask what was JS's intent, and why use this approach?
and the answer, as it turns out, is that he was drawing from the bible and applying its lessons to his own situation.
in original context, JS was facing some pretty intense persecution by many people --- including some he had considered to be friends. JS made the statement about a month before he was killed......after reading 2 Cor. 11: to the congregation....so please note the following statement by paul in this scripture:
"Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly." (2 Cor. 11:16-19, NASB)
and then paul launches into a tirade where he claims many things to make himself look the fool, in an effort to contrast himself with those who the corinthians were listening to instead of him. this was meant to compare and contrast what the saints at corinth were doing against what he was offering. and JS used it to portray the same intent to those saints listening to him.....
we don't dismiss the words of paul nor deny his calling as an apostle because he used an approach that included boasting and likewise we should not dismiss JS when it is clear by his own statements, in context, that he engaged in the exact same approach.
edit: I lived in st geo back in the day......IMHO it should not be 116 degrees anywhere.... =)
good luck with your studies. just remember - there is little proof of spiritual things that is not subjective - but tons of evidence.
- 1 decade ago
Your point being? If what Mormons speak of is true, then the founder was directly visited by an Angel from heaven. Jesus never had that, apparently he was a god who was then nailed to a tree.
Most people who claim any aspect of divinity, deserve to have such divinity torn from their still beating heart, as they writhe in their own hubris. Any good intention proclaimed by mortal man, is sullied when he claims godhood. Man should lead man, the divine are worshipped but the immortal cannot lead the mortal.
Perfection cannot lead imperfection. Deities show the way, man governs, explores and leads. What Joseph said is no more wrong than the words of Christ, it just so happen Christ appeared first. What about if Joseph Smith appeared before Jesus, was revered as a saviour etc, then later Jesus appeared and said some crap, then he would be ridiculed.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Mormons really are an odd bunch of people. They are arrogant, proudly ignorant, intensely stupid and they act as though their poo-don't-stink.