If I have had a hatafat dam brit, a tevilah and 3 years of observing halacha and moedim, am I Jewish?

What if this all took place in a Torah observant Messianic synagogue?

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  • Anonymous
    10 years ago
    Favorite Answer

    You'd actually have to spend time alone reflecting on what is in your heart. Judaism has much more to do with God's impact on character and qualities than man-made formalities.

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  • magill
    Lv 4
    3 years ago

    Hatafat Dam Brit

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  • 10 years ago

    If I have had a hatafat dam brit, a tevilah and 3 years of observing halacha and moedim, am I Jewish?

    - Nope. No halachic conversion by an Orthodox beis din means you're not Jewish.

    What if this all took place in a Torah observant Messianic synagogue?

    - There's no such thing. Xian meshichistim aren't shomer mitzvos but they do like to play make believe at being Jewish.

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  • Sorry babes, celebrating human sacrifice and/or centering a religion around an incarnate deity is contrary to Torah. There is no such thing as a "Torah observant Messianic synagogue". Nor have you observed halachah for 3 years with those beliefs.

    If you manage to convince an authentic Jewish beit din to convert you with those beliefs, your conversion would be void as you had no intention of observing Torah's commandments regarding the avoidance of idolatrous practices.

    Those are the rules and outsiders don't get to change them.

    What you've been engaging in is essentially theatre.

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  • robb
    Lv 6
    10 years ago

    Let me see if I got this straight, you had a Hatafat Dam Brit in a Messianic Congregation? by a Messianic "rabbi"? Congratulations, I believe that makes you a "Messianic Jew" .

    Seriously, in order for a conversion to be legitimate it has to be performed according to halacha by a Beit Din recognized by some legitimate branch of Judaism. I am not aware of a conversion procedure that has been agreed upon by all Messianic Congregations, much less one that would be accepted by a legitimate branch of Judaism.

    What is the name of the congregation where you had the Hatafat Dam Brit or did you just make that part up?

    This is kinda like someone joining a protestant church and claiming that they are now Catholic.

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  • 10 years ago

    Of course not. You have not gone through any recognised process to become Jewish under Jewish law. Your beliefs are incompatible with Judaism. Whatever you imagine, the practices you have been engaged in are not Jewish, and calling them by Hebrew names doesn't magically make them Jewish. Unless these things take place under the supervision of a properly constituted Jewish Beit Din, they're meaningless under Jewish halacha.

    I've never understood what on earth can be deemed "Torah observant" by people who are using an entirely different definition of messiah from a Jewish one, and insert that understanding into all Jewish festivals, including the absurdities that pass for Pesach among "Messianics". Torah has a meaning - you distort that as much as you do the term "Jew", it would seem.

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  • BMCR
    Lv 7
    10 years ago

    Since a "Messianic synagogue" follows a religion that is really a "weird form of Protestant Christianity with Jewish trappings" and since the beliefs of Christianity are fundamentally different from Judaism, then, by definition, there is no such thing as a "Torah observant" Messianic synagogue.

    Thus, any "conversion" performed by such a congregation would be invalid according to Halacha.

    It is not my intention to insult, merely to state the facts as they are.

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  • Anonymous
    10 years ago

    answer: it would still make you a Christian. Does the convert renounce their previous beliefs, including that of a divine and sacrificed "savior" or worship of other deities? Was the beit din conducted by a legitimate Jewish rabbinical court? That's a legit part of conversion to REAL Judaism.

    Did the Pesach celebration include talk about how the holes in the matzah and marks are precursors to Jesus/Yeshua? How his execution is foreshadowed by the blood of the Pesach lamb sacrifice? Was Hanukkah celebrations about the "light" of Yeshua to the world? Does the worship service include readings and verses from the NT or "complete" Jewish bible?

    A Yes to any of those means you were NOT "Torah observant" at all - no 'messianic' is.

    Christian beliefs with twisted Jewish rituals and holy days doesn't change the fact that it is still Christianity, despite the deceptive label.

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  • 10 years ago

    Sorry, there is no such thing as a "Torah observant messianic synagogue" for the very somple reason that they deny the Torah every time they pray to jesus! regardless of what name you call Jesus by, assigning multiple parts to G-d violates the Torah. Thus the term "Torah observant messianic synagogue" is an oxymoron!

    thus, any "conversion" done by them is merely from one sect of Christianity to another sect of Christianity and has no relevance at all to Judaism. No Jewish denomination would recognise it as a conversion to jduasim and no Jew will see you as being Jewish. I hope they didn't defraud you of too much money when they misrepresented themselves as Jews and "converted" you.

    Source(s): Orthodox Jew; acting Rabbi
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  • 10 years ago

    I hope this q is a hypothetical bit of trolling and not an actual claim that New Testament adherent groups are now violating Torah observance in utter disrespect by perverting even the circumcision rituals!

    Torah observance would mean you could never consider a human as God incarnate, that's blasphemy and complete violation of the affirmation of faith. You can't be dedicating yourself to the covenant of Israel with a real hatafat dam brit if you're engaged in blasphemy to the Torah and worship a man-god or rely on human sacrifice. Those are antithetical to the covenant of Israel. Period.

    Saying "Torah observant Messianic synagogue" is like saying you are a very strict vegan while eating veal cutlets.

    It is NO LESS disrespectful to Torah observance and the eternal covenant of Israel to take the rituals God commands in Torah for dedication to that covenant and apply them to beliefs that are forbidden by it..in the manner that this question puts forth

    than it would be to take the Eucharist and claim it honored worship of Krishna or the Christian Devil

    One does not observe Torah by applying holy observances to honor practice and belief directly forbidden IN the Torah. One does not observe Torah by utter disrespect of it.

    Worship of or through a Jew remains utter violation of Torah to do!

    Christians have their own covenant, their own rituals, customs and their own holy times from their New Testament dogma of faith that remains in contradiction to Torah observance and Judaism. If that is the path that calls to you or anyone else..live it in peace

    But please live it in honesty and do not pervert the eternal covenant of Torah and try to hijack Jewish identity to do it.

    Shalom

    edit: For those unfamiliar with the Ivrit (Hebrew) used above and wondering why this is so disrespectful to Judaism. The question puts forth the notion of someone who has undergone a circumcision ritual ( but because already circumcised, only a drop of blood was let as an outward act of committment to the eternal covenant) for dedication to the covenant of Israel, an immersion in a mikvah (ritual bath) , has observed Jewish law and ordained holy times/festivals for 3 years...however..as another Jew noted..the most important thing was omitted

    AND

    Since all of Judaism is a messianic religion, there is no need to distinguish any movement "messianic"..however, since the 70's..there are growing evangelical Christian groups ( NT adherent of various denominations) who deceptively call themselves "Messianic Jews" and who call their houses of worship "synagogues".

    That's why this is so utterly disrespectful. It's bad enough to take the name of Judaism to apply to a belief that violates Torah, but to take every holy observance , ritual and commandment and insert forbidden ( avodah zarah) worship into it..as this q insinuates that such things might be done is really an extreme form of hypocrisy if one is claiming to call it Torah observant! You could not possibly violate those commandments any more completely than to use the rituals of Judaism to dedicate yourself to worship to or through Jesus!

    If you've followed the NT for those 3 years, you were not Torah observant, nor did you observe the moedim as Torah dictates.

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  • Maci
    Lv 4
    10 years ago

    No. (And by the way, even if that were to take place in a real synagogue you still wouldn't be Jewish . . . you would have missed what is arguably the most important step lol)

    That would be an incredibly weird way of converting to that Christian denomination. Messianics cannot be Torah observant by definition, since their beliefs and actions contradict Torah.

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