Reaction to atheist posts: (Can you answer this?)?

Alright atheists, from one of the posts I made recently it would appear that you have all made one point crystal clear regarding your belief about the existence of the universe, which is that "IT DID NOT COME OUT OF NOTHING"...sounds familiar, correct?

Okay, so let's pretend that you are right (which on this point I feel you may actually be onto something...uh-oh, careful, our beliefs may be converging!), and that the universe including all known laws and forces did not arise out of nothing, but rather always existed either in one form or another, and originated from a "Singularity" as one of you so singularly put it (pun intended).

Now, based upon this new premise, my new question to you is as follows:

* If it is conceivably "OK" in the atheist handbook to believe that the universe has always existed in either one form or another whether gross or subtle, then from any sane and rational person's perspective, you are essentially saying that THE UNIVERSE IS ETERNAL.

Ok, now let's ponder this point for a moment.

ETERNAL is a very, very big word, wouldn't you agree?

I mean, if you are saying that the universe is eternal, then you are in fact admitting that it is possible for the basic concept of eternality itself to exist.

Whoa!

To a God believer, you are getting pretty darn close to the basic concept of God, the first premise of which deems that: HE IS ETERNAL.

Now, I know all this talk about my quote-unquote "imaginary friend" really bugs you, but I simply cannot resist making the following point based upon what the great majority of you atheists really seem to believe according to all of the posts I received from you directly.

If consciousness has power over nature (which to our human ability it does to a highly limited extent), and since consciousness is obviously part of the grand scheme of things in the universe...well guess what?

CONSCIOUSNESS MUST ALSO BE ETERNAL.

Is this incorrect?

I mean, let's put it this way...how could one part of the universe be eternal, but another part not be eternal?

Get my drift?

And since consciousness is eternal, and it is possible for consciousness to rule over nature which it very much can, just as we human beings rule over this earth at the present time, then why is it 100% impossible that a very powerfully developed and intelligent form of consciousness could have

manifested the building blocks of nature singlehandedly?

Now let's briefly go through all of this again:

According to you atheists the following is true:

1. THE UNIVERSE IS ETERNAL.

And according to this, it follows naturally that:

2. ETERNALITY THEREFORE EXISTS.

Now again, adding these two very powerful points together with what is also true concerning the nature of consciousness and the fact that it cannot be separated from the grand scheme of all that exists in the universe, the following must indeed also be true, (and I really truly would like to see any one of you refute this particular point):

3. CONSCIOUSNESS MUST ALSO BE ETERNAL.

Now, adding the last and final element to my argument, if the above three points are true, and it is also true that consciousness inherently has some degree of power over nature, then:

4. WHY IS IT 100% IMPOSSIBLE THAT AN ETERNAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS WITH COMPLETE AND TOTAL POWER OVER NATURE COULD EXIST?

I now challenge you directly to confront these points, which ironically you yourselves have provided the basis for.

I await your replies atheists.

Cheers!

Optimist.

31 Answers

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  • Anonymous
    10 years ago
    Best Answer

    Points 1 & 2 are mostly considered self-evident truths in what I will loosely call the modern philosophy of life based upon scientific knowledge.

    The point that the universe is eternal and is therefore a form of "GOD" is also widely accepted in science. Your summary to that point is excellent and might even be called a working definition of Einstein's God. (Or Stephen Hawkins’s God, or half a dozen other agnostic-ish scientists of note)

    Then you go off the rails...

    You are making an assumption about Consciousness. One that I think that nearly the whole of science would conclude was too far beyond the current knowledge of science to be reasonable, let alone acceptable. Three important bits that you might want to research:

    (1) Science is currently debating the nature and definition of "consciousness." It is entirely possible, but unlikely, that science may one day conclude that consciousness isn't real. More likely, science may conclude that "consciousness" represents a concept like "soul" that has meaning in the context of philosophy & human life, but isn't something "separate" from mind. Given the current state of scientific research, however, is seems extremely unlikely that science will conclude that consciousness exists without the living (human) brain.

    (2) The essential argument against GOD with science isn't really that a god cannot exist by any definition, but rather than the particular definitions of (your) God within the context of (your) religion make zero sense with a solid understanding of the universe ("everything") as defined by science.

    To your point 4: Consciousness cannot exist without a brain, which is physical. "Total power over nature" assumes a world order (the ancient worldview of man) that was utterly smashed to bits by physics in the 21st century (Einstein's Relativity theories and physical cosmology in particular). To put it in too small of nutshell, it is simply "unnecessary" to the "structure" of the universe with modern knowledge.

    (3) I might jump on your bandwagon just for the fun of it if it were not for the main point of religion: obedience. What is the point of Christianity, for example? Is it to simply to believe that God could exist? Of course not. The point is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior so that He might guide you for the rest of your natural life and save you in the next from eternal damnation.

    I will accept Einstein's God as possible (rational). Okay, I'll honestly embrace your points 3 & 4 for at least an hour or two...how do you get me to belief and obedience to your (particular) God? I don't see you getting there. I think you have lost the most important point in your personal belief system, haven't you?

    To grind my point into a fine powder:

    Accepting the possibility of a limitless consciousness ("God") means I can completely reject any narrower definition of God as the creation of limited (human) minds. You say "God says." I say "No He doesn't." The logical conclusion has to be that we are both correct.

    ?

  • Jess H
    Lv 7
    10 years ago

    Eternity does not mean "magical being". "Eternity" and the concept of "God" are NOT "pretty darned close to each other". You are making up a fictional character, and then declaring that it is eternal, and therefore, because eternity exists, your fictional character exists. That is no different than saying that because vampires are supposed to live forever, that eternity and vampires are pretty darned close to each other, and therefore, because eternity exists, vampires must also exist. Eternity and your imaginary friend have nothing to do with each other.

    Consciousness and eternity also have nothing to do with each other. Consciousness is not eternal. Consciousness is nothing more than signals in the brain. When the brain that processes information dies, consciousness dies. And consciousness has no power over nature. If it did, then we would be able to stop tornados, and Earthquakes. We can't. If we took the whole of the human race on Earth, and put everyone together to try to stop a tornado, or an Earthquake, it couldn't be done, even with billions of people working together. Nature kicks our a-- every time.

    We don't say that it is 100% impossible that an eternal divine consciousness with complete and total power over nature could exist. I challenge you to show me a single atheist who says it's 100% impossible. We say that we have no reason to believe that such a thing DOES exist.

    You have not even begun to make an argument on behalf of the existence of "God", here.

  • ?
    Lv 4
    10 years ago

    The Singularity came from the 'Big Crunch' at the end of the last universe, perhaps? (kind of like the opposite of the Big Bang). And the Big Bang was just the re-expansion of this matter.

    Yes, the Universe is Eternal, but not as THIS specific existence.

    Consciousness exists within the Brain, we are beginning to be able to understand and create computers which echo basic consciousness. Our brains (which were given to us by Evolution) have consciousness AS LONG AS OUR BODIES CAN SUPPORT IT (ie. Not singularly eternal).

    Brain activity and therefore consciousness are the transfer of electrical charges throughout a vessel designed to carry them (ie. the brain), these both (the charges and the vessel) have mass and for these to exist outside the Universe (the only place Eternality is possible) would create space and time, thus destroying the concept of eternality.

    Therefore Divine Hand is impossible. That's why we say there isn't one.

  • 10 years ago

    Since matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, that implies that matter/energy has always existed in one form or another.

    Why do you assume that if anything is eternal that means your god exists? You're making a leap of logic that has no basis in reality but seems to come from assumptions that only you hold.

    Point by point:

    1. This particular universe is not eternal. We know there was a starting point. However, there may have been other universes.

    2. Yes, eternity may exist.

    3. No, since consciousness is a function of an organic brain, it can't be eternal.

    4. It's not impossible that such a thing could exist, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that it does. Showing that in some way, something COULD exist does not in any way prove that it DOES exist. I don't know why that's hard for you to understand.

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  • This Universe that we live in today, the one Genesis says God ( Yahweh) created, is not eternal, for this universe that we are part of in the now had a beginning! Thus I think I have found a flaw in your theory, but I will give you points as it is recognised that the building blocks of this universe 'cosmic dust' etc must have existed before the big bang; but if we look logically this could have been the reminisce of a previous universe,which was compressed into one singularity, which then exploded becoming the first cause of this reality (this is just one theory). Which ever way you look at it, nothing, I say, NOTHING, backs up, or shows evidence of an eternal being creator.

    The intro into this question is Way too long

    Source(s): ST
  • Anonymous
    10 years ago

    "* If it is conceivably "OK" in the atheist handbook to believe that the universe has always existed in either one form or another whether gross or subtle, then from any sane and rational person's perspective, you are essentially saying that THE UNIVERSE IS ETERNAL."

    Good point..........although I seriously doubt there is a Atheist Playbook.

    IF it has always existed then it cannot have an ending, because it never had a start. The Universe would then become essentially "A Eternal Entity" or as many other put it, a God.

  • Anonymous
    10 years ago

    It's not impossible "THAT AN ETERNAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS WITH COMPLETE AND TOTAL POWER OVER NATURE COULD EXIST?"

    But, prove it.

    It's also possible that the FSM exists and fairies, pixies, elves, etc. But that doesn't make it true.

    As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

    It is not upon us, as atheists, to disprove your god, it's up to you to prove he exists. You can't do that. Neither can the muslims or hindus prove their god exists. So, what it boils down to is this. You can't prove a god exists, moreover, you can't prove that your god is the creator. You have only a book written many centuries ago. Normally, if you looked at a book that old that made claims of a god you would laugh it off, but because it is the god you grew up with, you are willing to believe it.

  • 10 years ago

    That was kind of confusing but that might be because im about to fall asleep.

    Im an atheist and im not sure what i believe in when thinking about the universe mainly because i don't want to be forced to decide what happened. At the moment im at an age when im starting to think about my views. which of my 'views' are actually my views. some i can see are my views but then others appear to have been planted in my head my friends and family not saying that's negative or anything but its kind of frightening when you think that almost everything you are is an indirect result of those around you. From a young age parents and teachers shape your personality. For example it would have been to easy for my parents to tell me when i was young that blue was red and i would believe them without a second thought.

    The main reason why im atheist is a similar thing to that. I don't want to follow, to conform to what other people believe i want my own views and own thoughts on things and believing in a book that's 2000 years old is like believing in everything my parents say.

    Every religious person i have met has had the same belief (depending on the religion). This makes me wonder if its their view or something they have been taught to believe at a young age.

    I know this doesn't really answer you questions but i figured this would be a better way of telling you why im an atheist rather than try and answer the confusing one you have asked

  • Anonymous
    10 years ago

    No any creation is eternal...Except GOD alone.

    One clue to find the true religion, that is to find out the religion that can be proved right!

    If there are words of GOD then could not be wrong. If its truly words of GOD, there will be no contradiction with science as well, because GOD knows all things that He had been created.

    Read the scripture in your hand and prove it! Be dare.. Believe that, no one will help you in the Day of Judgment. So how are u going to answer GOD if you've chosen the wrong way to worship Him? find out the truth before its too late. don't blindly follow, its your own choice and will be your own consequence in the Hereafter. I am a Muslim.

  • pab
    Lv 7
    10 years ago

    Atheist handbook? WTF

    How about this: I don't know.

    Makes a whole lot more sense than 'goddidit'

    Here's where you don't make any sense:

    "If consciousness has power over nature (which to our human ability it does to a highly limited extent), and since consciousness is obviously part of the grand scheme of things in the universe...well guess what?

    CONSCIOUSNESS MUST ALSO BE ETERNAL."

    Well pretty much everything after that doesn't make any sense.

    You've failed to prove your assumption that we think consciousness is eternal. That just doesn't make any sense.

    How is consciousness eternal? What does that even mean?

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