Now use your logic on your logic.
The universe came from nothing. Quantum fluctuations can initiate a big bang. The laws of physics are contemporaneously the cause and effect.
"First cause" in the sense that you speak of, is an oxymoron.
If God created existence, he is nonexistent. You must be nonexistent to create existence, because if you weren't, existence would not need to be created. Obviously, if god exists, god is existence. God cannot create existence without not existing herself, if existence exists, existence itself does not need to be created (repetition) and god is existing without god demanding it to be so.
Either existence has always existed and needs no creation, or existence spontaneously began existing out of nothingness. It would be the first cause. But it would have a beginning and not be infinite, and there can be no creator of it. (more repetition)
Furthermore, if you want to say that God doesn't abide by our physical laws, he is illogical. If he is illogical, our lexicon is useless on him. Try to *not* describe God with the words existent and nonexistent, and see what kind of quagmire that creates.
EDIT: No we are not. We are talking about the same set of rules. Those rules are the only ones the explain how the Big Bang was initiated. If you want to say that God is not confined to our laws, then he is illogical. If god is not bound by gravity, everything like his mass, shape, weight, size, appearance, do not make sense anymore. At this point we cannot use our logic on him at all. Now you can refer to my previous paragraph. You are the one saying that laws of physics do not apply to him; I am merely sticking to the narrative.
Mr Mckenzie, Get educated. Your entire position is argument from ignorance. The Quantum fluctuations ARE THE CAUSE AND EFFECT. Jesus Christ. Please stop with the Atheist strawmans.
Thanks for playing.
· 10 years ago