So Mohammed is not a "pedophile"...?
...because at the time it was a cultural norm to marry girls when young.
I completely agree. And I've heard this argument before.
BUT. Why make this the exception?
Homosexuality was frowned upon in those days. It isn't anymore by most people (non-muslims) since we've found that homosexuality exists in animals and therefore nature too.
I find this to be a huge double standard. You can't argue for cultural relativity on one point and not another.
So, my question is, why argue about "cultural differences" when defending Mohammed from pedophile claims and not do the same for homosexuals (also mentioned in the Quran)? And this doesn't only concern homosexuals. It can be about outlook on women (and a man's right to beat a woman if she displeases him, etc).
I just think that someone who claims to follow the Quran entirely shouldn't have anything against allowing their 9-year old daughter to be married off to an old man. So why do you?
@Xavi: What? People can always claim Catholic child molestors are not following the religion correctly. How do you propose to do the same regarding Mohammed? o.o
@Not Afraid 2 Stand Alone: ... You may have noticed that I put "pedophile" in brackets.
But good way of avoiding to answer my question...
@Crikey: It makes perfect sense. Maybe that's why you're avoiding it? :)
I know homosexuality hasn't been proven to be genetic. But that's not what this topic is about. This is about Mohammed and his wife being perfectly acceptable in HIS TIME. It was a cultural norm back then. Just as homosexuality was frowned upon in HIS TIME.
@Wazeer the Unity fan: So you can be against homosexuality and not be a hypocrite (which is fair enough, I guess). I personally don't care at all about her age. This question is directed to those who believe she was 9 and have one hell of a double standard. ;)
@Natassia: Perhaps. I do tend to mix the terms up.
Either way, I see you're not a moral/cultural relativist. But plenty of people are. And I've heard the argument used (regarding Mohammed) several times. And it's to those I am aiming this question.
Having sex with a nine-year-old has not always been seen as wrong just as human sacrifices have not always been seen as wrong. That you think they're wrong is really something else.
I find it amazing how you can know what people in the past believed. ;) Child marriages were very COMMON and "normal." It was only recently that the concept of childhood was created and the idea of sex and its psychological impact on children. Before it was seen as natural since period = sexual maturity. Quite reasonable, really... And sure, there are complications. But there was for all women in the past giving birth due to bad healthcare.
Now, you didn't really answer my question. :P I'll assume you agree with Wazeer then. ;)
@Natassia: A nihilist? I wouldn't define myself as such. I believe that morality exists (outside religion - since I do not follow any organised religion) But I believe values are subject to change/variation based on context. Why? Because our knowledge of certain subjects shifts over time and I believe this should lead a shift in values. To me it is not logical that our knowledge grows whilst our values remain static. This in fact only happens when people are following static sources that preach morality - religion.
@Wazeer: Picked your answer since you're at least consistent. Too bad more muslims aren't. ;)
- 1 decade agoBest Answer
He never married Bibi Aisha (ra) at age 9, here is the convincing argument which shows it:
What was the age of Aisha (ra) when she married Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and on what do you base this?
What age do you think she was when she got married?
(1)- Many Muslims believe that she was 6-9 years old when she married and they base this upon the Hadith. Whilst I do not reject Hadith***, I have always felt that all Hadith should be subjected to greater scrutiny based upon more parameters one such being mathematical conformity.
(2) - 16-19 proof: Having done research, some mathematical reasoning and having read the following scholarly articles
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?re... and viewed the following video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NyqV7D7q5lE&feature=... it became clear that her age was much greater, either 14-20 or 16-19. Through mathematical deduction this is abundantly clear.
(2) - 16-19 proof: Consider that Aisha (ra) had a sister whose name was Asma (ra) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Abi_Bakr who was 10 years older than Aisha (ra). This sister Asma (ra) died at an age of 100 years in the year 73(AH), as such this logically means she was born in the year 27(BH), if she was supposed to be 10 years older than Aisha (ra) it threfore logically means that Aisha (ra) was born in the year 17(BH) and since we are told she married our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) a little after the Hijrah (1AH) http://www.anwary-islam.com/prophet-life/holy-p-Ev... it clearly means she was 18 years old when she got married.
- Alternatively, one can look at this same proof in another way as we are told that Aisha (ra) died in the year 58(AH) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aishah and her sister Asma died in the year 73(AH) aged 100 which means there is a 15 year gap between the years of death for these two sisters and as such it means that Asma (ra) was 85 years old when her younger sister Aisha (ra) passed away and logically it means that Aisha (ra) had to be 75 years old when she died, as such if she got married some 57 years earlier it means once more she was 18 years old when she got married.
(3) 14-20 proof: Consider also that Fatima (ra) was 5 years older than Aisha (ra) as mentioned In Asad Al-Ghaba’s collection of traditions (volume 4, page 377) it is reported: Fatima (ra) was about 5 years older than Ayesha (ra). Okay, now we know that Fatima (ra) died in the same year as her father Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ie: 11(AH) and the most accurate age at which she is considered to have died is 30 as per the following "Zubair bin Bakar narrated to Abdallah bin Al-Hasan that he was with Hisham bin Abdulmaalik and Kalbi. Hisham made an inquiry of Abdallah, "How old was Fatima bint RasoolAllah?" Abdallah replied, "30 years old." After this he asked Kalbi the same question and Kalbi replied, "35 years old." Upon hearing this Hisham said to Abdallah, "Listen to what Kalbi is saying," and Hisham gave more importance to Kalbi’s testimony. Then Abdallah said, "Oh ameer al-momineen! Ask me about my mother and ask Kalbi about his." (Istia’ab, vol. 6, pg. 752) " So if she died at age 30 it means that Aisha (ra) would have to be age 25 and since she got married some 10 years earlier, it would mean she was 15 when she got married and if one were to go by Fatima (ra) being 35 when she died as above, it would therefore mean that Aisha (ra) would have been 20 when she got married.
-Alternatively. Also as mentioned above in Asad Al-Ghabaâ's collection of traditions (volume 4, page 377) it is reported:
Fatima (RA) was about 5 years older than Ayesha (RA).
Hence, to find out Aisha's (ra) birth date we must find out Fatima's (ra).
"Abbas went to Ali's house, and Fatima was saying to Ali that she was older than him. So Abbas told Fatima that she was born in the year the Quraish were building the Kaaba and Ali was born a few years before that" (Al-Ghaba, vol. 4, pg. 280).
Fatima (ra) was born in the year the Quraish were building the Kaaba and when the messenger (pbuh) of Allah was 35 years old (Al-Ghaba, vol. 4, pg. 377)
Fatima is the daughter of RasoolAllah. Khadija was her mother. Fatima was born in the year the Kaaba was being built, and that was 5 years before the nabuwwah (Tabqaat ibn Saad, vol. 8, pg. 11).
We all know our Prophet (pbuh) was 40 years old when he received Nabuwwah and he was approx 54 when he married Aisha (ra), as such from above if Fatima was 5 at the time of nabuwwah, it means Aisha (ra) who was born then would have then been 14 when she married our Beloved Prophet (pbuh) some 14 years later
So here we have it, 3 ages for when she married, (1) 6-9 years, (2) approx 16-19 years, (3) 14-20 years. Two out of three of the above logical deductions show she was a teenager when she got married and not a child, hence we can safely deduce that the greater likelihood is that she was a teenager and therefore mature when she married, we will never know for sure but logical deductions clearly prove she was a teenager. Salam to all of you
In conclusion, it is clear that Aisha (ra) was both physically and mentally mature when she got married. Clearly those who choose to attack our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) by claiming he married a child should think again. Pls note, Im not against Hadith, however we have to be honest with ourselves as Muslims-Hadith does lack the same levels of Quality compilation and authenticity as our Glorious Quran does. Our Quran is perfect and I have always felt that Muslims always tend to rely more on Hadith than on our Quran. All Hadith are not wrong, most have been excellently compiled and authenticated by our Scholars but what has been done in this question is resolving ambiguities in order to find the truth on this matter. Allah knows best
***Here's my view on Hadith
EDIT: Questioner: Here is a question which I answered on Homosexualism:
- StuartLv 41 decade ago
To be honest your question/argument didn't make sense but I think I can see where you are coming from, its not about double standards, homosexuality may exist in animals but it hasn't actually been proven that it is genetic.
Im not avoiding anything, I personally don't see homosexuality as natural but I'm not homophobic either and it does not effect me.
A man does not have right to beat a woman up if she displeases him either, I have checked this up many times.
And there are many non muslims too who are homophobic.
The reason homosexuality will not become considered as normal in main religions is cause the main religions say it is forbidden. In Islam, homosexuality is as sinful as adultery, and other major sins.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
These claim are all false. these claim have been refuted many times. these claim have no basis.
Hazrat 'Aa'isha was engaged to Jubayr son of Mut'im before Prophet Muhammad. This is proof that 'Aa'isha had reached the age of marriage and engagement in Prophet's time. However, the engagement was later nullified by Jubayr's parents due to Abu Bakr embracing Islaam.
Hazrat 'Aa'isha was a legal WIFE of Prophet Muhammad, and not anything else. Yet some evil minded Missionaries invented the LIE against Prophet Muhammad to justify or hide the crimes of thousands of pedophile Priests in their churches! Before revealing the crimes of their pedophile Priests, no one raised question about the Marriage of Prophet Muhammad to Hazrat 'Aa'isha.
It's a biological fact that a young girl can produce a child and get married when she has had her menses. Here is the fact that Hazrat 'Aa'isha had her menses at 9 years old: "The messenger of Allaah (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) said to me: Get me the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hands." [Saheeh Muslim, Hadeeth No. 15973]
Although puberty usually starts between ages 8 to 13 in girls, it may start earlier or later. Everyone's body changes at a different time. Whether you have breast at age 10 or have not started your period by age 14, do not worry. Everyone goes through puberty eventually.also It is known that girls living hot countries reach it earlier than in the west.
Lust for women? The Prophet's first wife was twice widowed before and she was 15 years older than him. And this was the only woman the Prophet ever married from his birth until age 50.
All his wives except Hazrat 'Aa'isha and Marya were widows. Therefore, it's obvious that Prophet's marriage with Hazrat 'Aa'isha was more of an exception and Prophet did indeed find adult relationship.
Prophet waited for Hazrat 'Aa'isha to mature and reach Puberty before the marriage was consummated, this obviously is contrary to the characteristics of a pedophile.
If there had been anything wrong with the marriage, Abu Bakr would have objected. If the father of Hazrat 'Aa'isha found no fault with the marriage then why should people 1400 years later raise objections?
Naturally, Abu Bakr must have had the best interests in his heart for his daughter. And both Hazrat 'Aa'isha and Abu Bakr lived after the Prophet Muhammad passed away.
Dr. Annie Besant has this to say about this allegation:
"But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigor, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion?
Not thus are men’s lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection." [Dr. Annie Besant]
It is well known that the pagans , Jews and Christians - specially the pagans - will mock and Insult Prophet Muhammad ( peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) for what he do which go against their way. they used to call him by names and etc...because he do things against their way.
There is not a single record that the pagans at that time said anything against Prophet marriage to 'Aa'isha. thus meaning its a normal thing.
If Prophet was as these liars claim , the pagans wouldn't have left him alone.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
im sure that your saying about Homosexuality, is just saying.
it's not natural and about the animals read this, although I found it verystrangee that you want to take someanimalss as an a good example to follow!!!
let us first remember what animals do. (I dont know if you are intresting in copying their acts):
Kill and eat members of their species — that is, they are often cannibals;
• Kill and eat some of their offspring — that is, they commit cannibalistic infanticide;
• Compete with other males for the opportunity to have sex with a particular female, often killing or debilitating the rival;
• Fight with and exile or kill the ‘owner' of a ‘harem,' kill his ‘children,' and then raise other children with the females in the harem (the females show no ‘loyalty' to their former ‘husband' and blithely have sex with the new guy).
• Discriminate against and kill ‘aliens' to their particular territory or tribe;
• Often have sex with some of their offspring;
• Often have sex with relatives and near-relatives (from a human perspective, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, grandparents, etc.) — in other words, they commit incest;
• Let the males just about always get their way (e.g., eat first, win any spats),
• Often allow large groups of males to have sex with a female, even leaving her near-dead or even dead — that is, they engage in ‘gang rape;' and
• Often allow one male to hog all the females in a given area, driving away his ‘sons' and his ‘friends' who would like a little sexual ‘pleasure' with the ‘girls.'
Now ‘homosexual' activity does not appear to be very common in nature. It is more common in animals in captivity. Among animals that herd and form harems, the ‘outsider' males at times engage in what appears to be ‘homosexual' activity. Sometimes, what appears to be ‘homosexual' activity occurs among birds.
But appearances may be deceiving — we don't know what animals are ‘thinking' and to what degree their activities are ‘chosen' as opposed to ‘instinct gone awry.' And many of the postures they adopt (e.g., mounting) are ambiguous as to what they ‘mean.' While such postures among humans can be figured out because we can ask the participants or ‘imagine what they must be thinking,' the same cannot be said of animals.
The Animal Homosexuality Myth
by Luiz Sérgio Solimeo
The following article is adapted from the author's recently published book, Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same Sex "Marriage" and the Homosexual Movement.
In its effort to present homosexuality as normal, the homosexual movement turned to science in an attempt to prove three major premises:
Homosexuality is genetic or innate;
Homosexuality is irreversible;
Since animals engage in same-sex sexual behavior, homosexuality is natural.
Keenly aware of its inability to prove the first two premises, the homosexual movement pins its hopes on the third, animal homosexuality.
There Is No "Homosexual Instinct" In Animals
Anyone engaged in the most elementary animal observation is forced to conclude that animal "homosexuality," "filicide" and "cannibalism" are exceptions to normal animal behavior. Consequently, they cannot be called animal instincts. These observable exceptions to normal animal behavior result from factors beyond their instincts.
read it all, it's informative
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- 1 decade ago
thts a history, no one knows whether mohamed lived in this world or not, but if mohamed lives in london now he will charged under sexual assault and child abuse, and imprisoned for atleast 11 years.
PS: mohamed brings good moral characters, he is a leader of muslims, if he married a 9 years old girl he is ealy rubbish
- Anonymous1 decade ago
i agree that age has nothing to do with marriage. especially when it comes to ppl in the past. bcz theres difference in how kids are raised before and today. Today the teenager is stil needhelp from his parents while in the past a kid is very courage and understand more than ppl do these days.
the thing is that whats normal is the man is attracted to women and the women is attracted to man, and age dont matter, sorry but desires are desires, and theres nothing wrong with it at all.
u wanna tell me that every person here on yahoo didnt like his cousin, his friend in schoold when they were litte? i dont think so, thats why they say that if u wanna know if kids love each other they keep bugging each other, the boy push the girl,to tell her that he like her and the girl get mean with the boy when she like him.
thats us, if we are little or young or old , we have these desires and these feelings and thats normal.
of course the way of showing the love change from being a kid to an adult.
as for homosexuality, well thats not normal, if u are lezbie or not, the truth will always stay a truth and we cant change things just bcz we like it.
the man who have desires and feelings(love) to an other man (same thing between two women) well thats not normal, even the kid knows that, a kid who will see a man and a women know that thats normal and a man with same sex isnt normal at all.
i dont know about animal, but even if they are, are u an animal? NO, when we became animal we will see about that(that if what u are saying is true that animal are gays too), we are human being not animals and theres difference in that.
simply look at chemistry, two things with one signs (- and -) they cant be joined and they refused to stay together, while (- and +) can be joined together.
sorry but theres also difference between a man's body and a women's body, he can make her pregnante while she cant make another women pregnante..those simple things in life are very showned and wherever u look u can feel and see prooves that a man and women(if she is little or not) they can be together and have feelings and desires while homosexuality int normal at all and i read once that homosexulaity isnt by birth at all, it have many causes (socials and even in the way the women raised the kid/girl).
- Life GuruLv 71 decade ago
No he is not a pedophile or a "pedophile" period. Since your premise is wrong, the rest of your arguments which ever way you direct them are at best misdirected or just plain false. Basic Logic.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Catholic child molesters. No I mean Catholic bishops and priests are homosexuals and molesters. They cant even get married. Then they start liking 11 year old boys. Read Wazeer's answer that's what the majority of us believe,
and start wondering about pedophilic catholic leaders, and closet gay Evangelicals, Mormon pedophiles, and Hasidic Jew pedophiles, who blindly follow the talmud. Ignore me, Im just ranting on.
- AnarchistLv 45 years ago
He was a baby raper. Get over it.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
The term is not "cultural relativity." It is "moral relativity."
In other words, there is no such thing as "good" and "evil" because it all depends on traditions and cultures of each particular time and society.
The problem with this argument is that, human sacrifice can then be considered "moral" for the Aztecs. It was part of their important religious beliefs. It was an integral part of their customs and cultures.
Having sex with a nine-year-old girl has ALWAYS been wrong. Whether a law was in place forbidding it or not, most humans just KNOW that to hurt a child is seriously evil. Sexual intercourse at the age of 9 is not normal. It is not good for the mental or emotional health of the child, and it also puts her physical health at serious risk. How often do you hear about 9 or 10 year old little girls giving birth naturally without any serious complications (such as fistulas)?
EDIT @ Asker: Out of curiousity, are you a nihilist?
- islam LiteLv 41 decade ago
Well, marrying 9-year old was NOT A NORM 1400 years ago, it is not a norm today, it is not a norm in the himalayas, nor is it a norm in the amazon or in the desert of Arabia. The excuses given by most Muslims are simply that, excuses. And can easily be disproved by the fact that there is no evidence any of the 30 plus daughters of the following close knit group of the Prophet (himself included) ever married any of their daughters (except Aisha) before the age of 12-15.
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, Umar bin Al-Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Talha ibn Ubayd-Allah, Zubayr ibn al-Awwam, Abd al-Rahman ibn Awf, Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas, Abu Ubaida ibn al-Jarrah, Said ibn Zayd.
If marrying 9-year old was "normal" you should have ATLEAST another 5 cases of the above companions marrying their daughters at 9-12 years of age. I have so far found NONE.
9 years and 12 years are worlds apart in the maturing process especially for girls. Odd thing is NOT A SINGLE one of the Muslims making this excuse will marry even their 15-year old daughter to a 50-year old man, NOT ONE SINGLE ONE!!!! Which makes them all hypocrites and double-faced.
why the Prophet married a 9-year old will always be a MYSTERY. There was no any shortage of women for him to marry at the time. the age of Aisha could well be mistaken and could be 12-14, which would be closer to a normal age for marriage in those times. Although, given the Prophet's position, it would still be HIGHLY DISADVANTAGEOUS for a head-of-state to marry someone that young.
Nobody can come up with any rational explanation. And to rationalize it away by calling the Prophet a Pedophile is even more bizarre!! He did not fit the profile of a pedophile by any stretch of imagination. He was as balanced and socially sophisticated a person as you could ever find.
attempts to portray the Prophet as a pedophile divert from the fact that the Prophet was a champion of women's causes. He loved the company of women and you will be hard pressed to find a GREAT LEADER of his stature in the history of mankind who had a more POSITIVE and more EMBRACING relationship with the fairer sex. History is full of great men with homophobic tendencies and illicit affairs and abusive relationships with women and dismissive attitudes towards women.
The Prophet elevated women as spouses and mothers and productive members of society and as individuals in their own right. In this he went against the norms of his male-dominated culture. Often infuriating his very own companions with the rights he granted women. This in a culture that before Islam used to literally bury their daughters alive out of shame!!!!
The dignity the Prophet bestowed upon women, their right to marriage, chastity, modesty, the status bestowed to motherhood are to this day appreciated by women and result in numerous conversions to Islam from other cultures.
The result of the Aisha marriage incident is that there is a fault-line in the Islamic religion. Given how so many Muslims virtually worship the Prophet like Christians worship Jesus, it opens up a channel whereby old men can coerce parents (especially poor ones) into giving away their young daughters under the pre-text of "oh, it is the sunnah of the prophet'. And this happens.
But it is not a common thing. As much as christian hate groups try to promote this, child-bride phenomenon is rare in Muslim world. A recent documentary on child-brides by world famous PBS Frontline shows child-brides are more related to poverty then to Islam and their survey of this common phenomenon across Asia does not find Islam as a factor whatsoever.
The BIGGEST IRONY today is that more children probably get raped ILLEGALY in child porn made in the West then under-age girls are wed LEGALLY in the Muslim World!!!! And yet if you listen to christian hate groups, you would never guess what the facts on the ground really were.
The US Dept of Justice estimates that pornographers have recorded the abuse of more than one million children in the United States alone. There is an increasing trend towards younger victims and greater brutality; according to Flint Waters, an investigator with the federal Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force, "These guys are raping infants and toddlers. You can hear the child crying, pleading for help in the video." (wikipedia)
Your attempt to associate homosexuality with child-bride is totally INCORRECT. Shariah law allows to this day a 9-year old (if mature enough to have sex) to marry a 60-year old man. It is in such instances for the parents to decide what is best for their daughter. The same Shariah law prohibits homosexuality. CASE CLOSED.
What the West does or does not do, has little relevance to Shariah Law other than discoveries by science which can help refine rulings and reset boundaries based on hazards to physical health.
To take your example to its natural conclusion, Muslim women should stop wearing hijab as well? Since most Western women walk around in public in their underwear, should wearing loose clothing by Muslim women not also be outdated and discarded by Shariah?Source(s): COMMON SENSE!