Theists & Atheists: Do you agree a great "POWER" DOES exist, but gods do NOT exist?
Here is one argument to show that a great "POWER" DOES exist, but gods do NOT exist.
But before we do, let's define/target a god before we bust him. For discussion sake, let's target and bust the god of Moses worshiped by Jews, Christians and Muslims.
Let's put out the following query: Is there any evidence anywhere, such as a god particle, a god fossil, a god thingy of some kind, to identify, trace, detect this god, living or dead, since Moses proclaimed him? In academia, in the absence of proof of the existence of something it must be deemed not to exist until verifiable proof is found. Thus, god is held not to exist pending some sort of verifiable evidence. All the paleontologists, astronomers and scientists are still looking. Despite the abuse they receive, many retain their faith and hope to find evidence. But the answer has always been NO. Then by reasonable judgment, god does NOT exist.
Indeed there is much that is amazing, that we are researching, that we don't have answers for. But to conclude that therefore some god (which god) did it, is beyond naive or stupid. It's self deceiving.
Science has shown that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in many forms as matter and dark matter, energy and dark energy, in ways we have yet to discover. The Big Bang was nothing more than a behavior of this always existent energy. We come from energy. We are energy. We take in and expel energy. We will return to energy. Science has revealed all this. There is no need for a god to create that which has always existed, not created, indestructible. So why stick our heads in the sand and say "I'm alive. God is the explanation?" What are you, if not energy? All the universe, see and unseen, is energy. You are a part of that whole. After you die, you will live on, in different dispersed forms of energy. And if maggots crawl out of your dead carcass, it is reasonable for a primitive man to conclude that you have reincarnated. But your perceived god has no power aside from energy. What then is greater, energy or the perceived god. What is an invisible god without the POWER? All that we see, all we know is energy.
Follow up: Then why did Moses proclaim his god? Could there be a motive for Moses to fabricate such a god? How about power, kingdoms, captive virgins, gold and chattels? (Numbers 31:25-54) Isn't that a great motive for outlaws to slaughter and plunder humanity? Then by reasonable judgment, the god of Moses is a fabrication, but a useful tool for men in positions of power as well as the followers who benefit.
The era of superstition is fast coming to an end, as knowledge overcomes ignorance and evidence against it continues to build. It's a reasoned judgment based on the preponderance of the evidence or lack thereof, plus other factors. Not everything is known to man. Therefore, judgment is critical and has been instrumental in the progress of our humanity. Our judgments are successful when they are based on the preponderance of evidence, unbiased knowledge and wisdom. If we rejected the preponderance of evidence in favor of FAITH, the earth would still be flat and at the center of the universe.
Actually, the 'idea of gods' needs prostrating worshipers like yourself to be, otherwise what would it be? Not even a hallucination. Those who create or worship imaginary gods suffer one or more of the following weaknesses: Ignorance, Gullibility, Brainwashing, greed for Reward, Fear of the unknown, Insecurity without a support group or more sinister Motives such kingdoms, power, virgins, gold and chattels (Numbers 31:25-54). Do one or more of these qualify you to be in the faith?
To help you, I would like to share with you these definitions:
FAITH: a vague idea, concept or impression of the unnatural and unreal kind, held steadfast to be true without substantiation or proof.
TRUTH: a fact that can be verified; conformity to reality or actuality.
Other distorted definitions of Faith or Truth used in a play of semantics to distort or sidestep sound reasoning and judgment, I reject for the reasons stated.
Should you worship the POWER of energy? The world already does, only not in ritual form or hallucinations. The ones that process the most energy are the richest and greatest.
Finally, if any theist is sure a god exists, let him/her prove it with intelligent reasoning rather than rant, or forever be silent. Can you show that a god, any god, exists without the unsubstantiated claims in religious books or statements saying god said this or John said that? Or asking to prove a negative? There are those who argue that the signs of god are everywhere. What we see, all we see is the POWER of energy and it's evolution over time. Neither are gods required to create the uncreatable, indestructible. Who then created the gods? We know FAITH is blind. Must we blind ourselves. Is it better to enter the dark cave of FAITH rather than walk towards the light of TR
... rather than walk towards the light of TRUTH.
Losasha - Your intellectual and reasoned response was certainly very convincing.
David Carrington - When all is energy, how is it useless?
Architect - As I stated, you are energy, and you have will. The Big Bang is energy and the formation of the universe is it's behavior. There is no logic or evidence to suggest the need for a creator to create the uncreatable, indestructible. The universe is not controlled by anything but the behavior of energy. We are energy and our behavior is entirely reactive to the energy that surrounds us.
Alexxia - "Fate" as you call it, it energy reacting with energy that yields results. Your mind too, is energy processing energy.
David Carrington - You are right. I do not define this power as any god. That would be rather primitive and unintelligent. But observe how important energy is to this world. America is ready to kill for it. It means POWER for the nation. The nation is dependent on it. I see how this nation strives for controlling POWER and wealth (accumulation of POWER).
Architect - Creatures do recharge. Most by eating. Plants use sunlight. Even a rock exudes energy. Thus it ages, as we all do. You can't make an assumption that doesn't conform to the laws of energy. Energy reacts on it's own terms. Energy has behavior, like you have behavior. Some think they have "free will" in some out-of-energy sense. However, they can't jump to the moon. They are limited by the terms of energy. Further, there is no more "free will" in humans than there is in dogs, plants or bacteria. It's all energy reactions. Your "free will" can't exactly control the energy flow through your mind. Optimal energy conditions cause that unconsciously. The output is determined by your energy experiences. Your assumption that energy exists, therefore it had to be created, raises the question, if gods exist, who created them? The fact is, there is no evidence that gods exist, but plenty that says energy is uncreatable, indestructible and always existed. No gods needed. Get well soon.
Dear friend - I am happy to continue this discussion with you. I am also very sorry to hear of your suffering and truly wish you well soon. Due to Y/A limits, I must keep this brief.
1) Yes, we do have what we refer to as "free will" but I would like to suggest that it is energy (us) possessing energy. Whatever keeps us alive is the same thing that keeps a dog, plant, bacteria, rocks and stars from disintegrating. It's energy in different forms like the gravity that keeps the moon, earth and sun moving in the energy processes of the universe. It is not unlike the plant that closes to embrace the insect or turns to face the sun. It has a decision process that is part of it's energy. We know that our decision processes are mostly in the brain, but not all. The conscious processing we refer to as "free will". Decision processing could not occur without energy. You are right that we have conscious control but as I said, control of the process is limited to the laws of energy.
2) Yes. Energy laws were observed and expressed by humans and we are still learning. Centers like CERN in Switzerland and Fermilab in Chicago, new observatories and satellites will soon reveal much more. What I suspect you are suggesting without saying it directly is that there is a supernatural energy force in existence to which we must give credit for our existence. I appreciate your suggestion but in academia, in the absence of proof of the existence of something it must be deemed not to exist until verifiable proof is found. To date, superstition is the only thing that supports the supernatural. Beyond superstition, there is not a shred of evidence.
Your assumption that the uncreatable, indestructible energy that has always existed has to have a start and therefore the gods created it, doesn't make sense. If all is created then who created the multitude of gods. The supernatural is superstition. While creatures do have the ability to imagine and deceive, nature is pure TRUTH.
3) You say "A sun light energy ends on solar shields and another life for electric energy starts."
What you are describing here is the evolution of energy. In the process, no energy was created nor destroyed. Some of the energy in the form of solar energy was reflected, some was absorbed by the material (another form of energy) causing it to heat (an energy state), some was transformed from light photons (a form of energy) to cause electrons (another form of energy) to discharge, etc. This is transformation/evolution not unlike everything else. All life is the transformation/evolution of energy. Energy had no beginning or end here. It was, it transformed and it's many new forms can be said to have beginnings and endings, but not energy in it's purist sense.
Best regards. Hope you have a speedy recovery.
apostole55 - The knowledge of science has accumulated over centuries. Collective humanity is a greater POWER than the individual, but tiny in the universe of energy. Knowledge increased exponentially in the last 20 years, but is minuscule compared to what will be known in the next 20 years. What I suggest, is corroborated and verified by testing from the collective intelligentsia. However, the gods have not been verified by testing or evidence yet. In academia, in the absence of proof of the existence of something it must be deemed not to exist until verifiable proof is found. The argument for gods therefore has no merit. I do not assert that I am right. If you are right, I would be most happy. But superstition, fear mongering, unsubstantiated claims and suppression of science is not the way to find in favor of the gods. If you claim the gods exist, the burden of proof by the preponderance of evidence is yours. No need to disprove anything. That all is energy, is proven.
Apostate55 - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to you but theists in general regarding fear mongering and the suppression of science. Gods, however, are a superstition. Yes, much is possible, but the gods are not currently plausible. Vishnu as a supernatural entity separate of the universe of energy is possible, but not plausible. Spirit means breath, and soul means breath plus body. When the breath stops, the body dies. Both are expressions of energy. Energy always survives. We come from energy. We are energy. We consume and discharge energy. We trade energy. The quality of our energy expression is reflected in the salary we earn and the wealth we accumulate. Economies are expressions of energy. When we die our biological energy is transformed by burial, cremation or other. All of our energy in all expressions was always part of the universal energy whole and merely transforms or evolves into maggots, gasses, thermal energy or similar. To be continued...
Apostate55 - Is the death diffusion of our biological energy into millions of particles and creatures, a cohesive entity reflecting our supernatural survival? That is a leap of FAITH. Is the universal energy whole a god? Well, our essence is it, all we do is it, and our survival is it. We ritualized it in our routines. We sleep, eat, play and work and we organize it by time, day, week. We strive to accumulate it and the more we do, the greater our POWER. Besides the universal energy POWER, we establish our pecking order by our POWER. Poppers and Princes. From what I understand, Vishnu is the universal almighty god that is integral and one with the universe and all creatures. While he is regarded as the creator, all is Vishnu and Vishnu is all. Science has shown that all is energy and energy is all. I am not Hindu, so I cannot say any more on this. Perhaps some day evidence will prove a god. But I'm not holding my breath it will be the god of Moses. To be Continued...
Apostate55 - You ask, "Do you think that it was random coincidence that the universe was created..." The universe was not created. The universe is the energy whole and this uncreatable, indestructible energy has always existed. The Big Bang is not creation. It was only a behavior of this energy. There is no evidence to suggest that the universe was created. The uncreatable cannot be created. There is a strong desire for theists to think in creation terms. When one is deeply indoctrinated, it painful and even terrorizing. Nobody wants to go to hell or face the wrath of god. Jesus may have lived. But much of the gospels and the rest is fabricated or distorted. He spoke of the "Father", never of WHWY, god of Jews. He wanted to convert the Jews. That is a whole other eye opening discussion we will not go into here. Jesus was a preacher, but not a god. Buddha before him was also great. Regards. It's my bed time now.
SUPPLEMENTAL - <The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: trimūrti) of the supreme god is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Shiva the destroyer or transformer." These three deities have been called "the Hindu triad" or the "Great Trinity".>
While the Vedas are great stories for superstitious man, a scientific parallel exists. Vishnu could be said to be the energy of the cosmos having a universal form, always existing, always maintained, never lost. Science shows there is one universal and persistent power, energy. Brahma is the creator and Shiva the destroyer and transformer characters of this same universal power. Thus, the constant seeming creations, destruction and transformations of the ever persisting, evolving, universal energy form we observe.
I find this parallel most interesting.
Dear Friends - Good Evening. I have just awoken from a great siesta, but still not quite there. I will get back to you with a coffee and a clearer mind. Architect, sorry you are not well. Recovery often takes a while. Take it easy. Apostole55, sorry I didn't pay attention to your name. No offense intended. Best Wishes.
Hello Friends - Some background about me before I respond to you. I was born and lived Catholic. I am still a member of my local parish and attend church at my wife's request. We agree to indoctrinate our daughter and she will receive First Communion soon. I have read the Bible multiple times and sought hard to find in favor of the god therein. The more I read, the more I am bothered by FAITH. For me to accept FAITH as TRUTH, has been self deceiving. To be just and fair, one thing I won't any longer do, is to judge with bias that something is TRUTH without the preponderance of evidence, or throw it at others to prove that I am wrong. Yet that is what FAITH demands. But what is horrific, Christian FAITH threatens eternal torture in hell for those who seek evidence to confirm the TRUTH of it. Torture by any entity, is more vile than murder. Evil I oppose. No entity that demands submission or threatens torture is good. Is it "free will" choice? Thus I quest for TRUTH. Continued...
Hello Architect -
1) You suggest that our ability to make decisions and our power to imagine the impossible or the supernatural beyond our reality "is proof that we are not bound to energy laws ." You say, "Imagination flows can't be limited to Energy laws , you can neither change imagination to reality nor to energy , only transferred into ideas ." OK, let's consider this point you make.
What is imagination? I suggest that imagination is not unlike dreams, hallucinations, mirages, visions, or other thought processes that lead to decisions, art, music, scientific explorations, stories, beliefs, even indecision and fear. The Bible is full of imaginative stories, some admitted and others passed as factual. In the OT, Joseph had dreams he couldn't understand, then became a dream interpreter, and in the NT, John wrote Revelations. Micheal Angelo, Nostradamus and Einstein showed the power of imagination and thinking.
Imagination, dreams, etc. are abilities seen in most creatures, including the gutter rat. They are pictures, sounds, ideas, that occur based on the energy environment that is impressed on the brain. We are not born with great ideas and dreams. Our brain learns by energy expressions and experiences. MRI's and other scans have shown that these are neuron activity in the brain that occurs mostly subconsciously but also as conscious thought. While a baby may dream about suckling a breast, those who excel in their field of learning, reveal or do great things. Here is a short and funny video of a dog dreaming:
- eLv 51 decade agoFavorite Answer
nice, i agree when u say 'The era of superstition is fast coming to an end, as knowledge overcomes ignorance and evidence against it continues to build'. its inevitable. I once had a dream, i saw the world in space and it was one huge glowing ball, in the dream i died and i changed into a shape with the same colour as the earth and i rose out and then the earth absorbed me into itself and i was part of that ball. i think i was also, like you thinking about energy and that came up in my dream. wer just one big circular ball of energy that gets recycled and gets put into different combinations to make different things.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Interesting question, but you should know science hasn't always known the things we know today, just because we didn't know about it 20 years ago does not mean it didn't occur 20 years ago. So you cannot disprove the existance of a creator because his existance hasn't been proven. Your entire arguement was not proven at one point, and still is only theory, not law. No one is right when it comes this topic. Because no one knows.
Edit: Superstition and Fearmongering? Suppression of science? Would you like to point out where I ever stated anything along those lines? I was simply outlining that it is possible the existance of a creator may be prooven one day.
Regardless, energy of course is fact, as you stated earlier in your question that we are all created of energy, and when we die that energy lives on. Did you ever think possibly that energy could play a factor in your "soul" and when you die your energy (soul perhaps) returns to its creator, God? Surely you didn't think a soul is like pixie dust or some tinkerbell like entity? Obviously a human soul would be energy if anything. Logic and Truth are only as good as the humans who define it, therefore the truth may not always be so. I do understand your arguement though, there is no physical evidence to prove his existance, but there is also none to disprove it. When you think in spiritual terms you must think with a very open mind, everything you see is either the product of a supernatural being, or a random coincidence. I cannot prove Gods existance, but who's to say 20, 30, 40, maybe 100 years down the road someone will. I will admit, your very intelligent and know your science = )
Now, my question is. Do you think that it was random coincidence that the universe was created, or do you think an outside force beyond our comprehension may have pushed the envelope?
I personaly believe that there is a God, and that he influenced the way the universe is now. I think that he did show himself as Jesus, as stated in the Bible. Pity there is no evidence of him other than the Bible, and other small outside sources.
EDIT: I'm sorry, but your going of on to things that were never mentioned. You cannot prove the universe was not created, if you can then the Burden of Proof is on you as well as I. Please back up your assumptions with hard evidence, or declare it is purely speculation. I know I cannot prove my point through the evidence you desire, but if your's can be prooven please do so, don't simply tell me how it works, there has to be studies behind it.
PS. My username is Apostole, translated from the new testament Greek Lexicon, which is a military command, for navy fleets. Apostate is an individual whome forsakes thier beliefs or religion, derived from the word apostasy. Just pointing that out, I'm sure you just got mixed up though. Later.
EDIT: Alright works for me. So basically you are against religion because of the harshness of punishment? I understand that, I feel the same way often. Though catholic religion is very strict, you may want to explore Methodist, Baptist, Lutheren, Ect.... Anyways, good luck, and catcha later.
- 1 decade ago
I don't know about a great power. A great question mark, certainly. Deists might think of it as a god, but I think such a broad definition of god is fairly useless.
Edit: I mean the definition as god is useless. It's the same as saying god=x.
- 1 decade ago
I think a greater power does exist, and it's called fate. Nobody can decide what color a persons hair is going to be or what a person is going to say in the next 60 seconds or whatever, There is no way. We have our own minds, and we do what we want with them. -_-'Source(s): my mind......
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- Anonymous1 decade ago
I like to believe in the idea of a universal energy flow, but that usually only occurs after i have ingested mushrooms of the psilocybe cubensis variety.
- Haitham EmadLv 71 decade ago
Well , I have to agree the POWER of energy exists but does energy have the will to move on its own in a very specified matrix to create the universe then create the planets then -Oh my- comes the first atoms from where life started & we -voala- evolute from it !
Energy on its own is just energy , it needs higher will to control it -just like we do- and benefit from it .
I like questioners who respond , it makes life easier .
Creatures can't be a mere energy or else all we have to do is recharge energy endlessly so we can live forever . Creatures manipulate energy to force an action on other entities to make a change , we use energy to stay alive .
Assuming that our creation was a coincidence of energy flows meeting and creating the first cell , why don't we see mono-celled viruses coming out of -lets say- light ? oil ? laser beams ? any form of pure energy ? they can't ... energy doesn't have a free will , it is in its nature to flow around and around endlessly or transform from one form to another but it can not decide -suddenly- to create life .
The idea is , energy flows but Free will is what controls its flow . Suggesting that our existence started with a coincidence is a lame assumption .
Oh and even if you have proven your theory -slim chance- you have to prove where did this energy come from ? Big bang ? where did that come from ? Just started ? then why don't we see those things around any more ?
It is a big and endless loop that can be easily broken by -simply- admitting that God exists - which I sincerely believe in .
P.S. don't worry if I didn't answer to your reply tonight , I am very sick and writing to you from bed = S
edit [ II ]
My temperature is getting down but I still can't leave bed , I hate this soar taste in my throat and the feeling of a puppet when we cut its ropes , I am string-less though .
Anyway , Living creatures do recharge and age because as any other thing in this universe , our bodies get consumed from over using them and constantly recharging its cells with energy .However , that doesn't mean that our bodies are just energy . If I am getting you right then you are supposing that whatever makes us alive or -at least- keeps us from death is Energy only , correct ? and when this energy vanishes or the rechargeable tool [our bodies] wears off , we meet our end ... Am I correct up till now ?
This assumptions unfortunately don't meet with what really happens in real life , a man's life can just end with a complete unknown and unreasonable cause . Some people can survive several month without food [energy] through free will only [e.g. Buddha priests & Yoga pros] , I even read that some people can control the number of their heart beats and lower their body functions to the minimal survival limits .
You give your fingers an order to move in a certain direction with specified power , your brain initiates a series of chemical reactions that result in an Electric signal to the nerves , flashing to your finger to move . Ok , did all that happen on its own or YOU just made it happen ?
If that is not free will then what is it ?
The given above examples explained how the human kind have some control on their cosmic energies [ the amount of control varies from person to another ] some can control it slightly more than others , some can use a higher percent of their Brain's energy while others can concentrate on their muscles ; People can control their energies however they like and we can't compare a random energy behaviour to that of an organised form of life like human Kind .
Energy laws were put by the observing human kind , we just observed how it reacts and put theories on what we see . Energy laws don't apply to all forms of energy though but they apply generally to earthly energy .
My assumption that energy existed then God must have created it is basically true , because energy like any other thing has a start and an end , I know it doesn't end but only transform to another form but this is end in its meaning .
A sun light energy ends on solar shields and another life for electric energy starts .
P.S. I am still feeling a bit numb & noxious , I guess I will answer to your reply as soon as I get better . Cheers .
edit [III] :
Thanks for wishing me a speedy recovery , I know I will be just fine if they laid off all those antidotes and painkillers I am dosing . Sorry I am late in answering .
1) Well , that is great , you are starting to understand what I am referring too - you are suggesting that Our free will is just another form of energy that is controlling our entity energy , well , religious people refer to this (upper energy) as the Soul of Creatures , it is our good feelings & thoughts , it is our ability to make decisions , to choose and live . Soul represents whatever is Good in our human nature.
Being limited to the Energy is only in real life decisions but Imagination , it is just Limitless , with no boundaries or restrictions , our imagination is simply the proof that we are not bound to energy laws . Imagination flows can't be limited to Energy laws , you can neither change imagination to reality nor to energy , only transferred into ideas .
2) Well , as I believe that energy doesn't have an (upper decision maker) or even free will on its own , Just a random or repetitive behaviour , then I think that such energy can't create life or planets - suggesting that our lives were mere coincidence of molecules hitting each other is just beyond reasonable thinking ...
Constants exist in our world and apply -almost- to everything we can observe or measure , one of these rules states clearly that everything must have a beginning and an End . I think that this applies to the (Indestructible energy) you mentioned earlier , it must have a start,a source or anything that initiated such a powerful sums of energy .
you asked a logical question that I have one certain proof-less answer ; you said who created God - I have to say no one , God has always been there and our earthly rules don't apply to His greatness . Where is my proof ? No proof , I have no evidence or clue to something coming out of pure faith and believe . So , it is not a scientific answer , it is a faithful one . Superstition is not the right word though . I prefer religious .
3) Yeah , that Solar board thingie probably wasn't the best example out there , but you get the point of what I mean ; also I already explained why do I think that energy must have an initiator or a source at least .
The matter of energy dying and re-birthing into a new form isn't evolution , it is a transformation process that keeps power resources of our planet stabilized .
Evolution is bound to the living cells that can evolve and upgrade to the better , it is somehow related to the Genetic changes that creatures obtain through centuries of Evolution .
Well , I would have had fun replying this time if it wasn't for that Pain-in-the-As headache . *Gulp* more painkillers , I hate to disturb my inner chemical balance but there is no escaping pills those days .
Hope my out-of-order words meant anything to you , I think I was just hallucinating this time .
Cheers .Source(s): please answer to my point without bragging allover resourceful theories of proof . Get to the point.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
I fell asleep in the fourth paragraph, sorry.
No, I disagree. You label this a "great Power." Im happy with calling it what it is - energy. Not great, not not-great, not capitalized, just energy.Source(s): Oli - yet another person who doesnt understand the rules of logic.
- Carter BoyLv 51 decade ago
God does exist, he is the reason we are here. I am a child of GodSource(s): child of God
- 1 decade ago
If anyone reads your whole question, they win a cookie.
Oh, and "no."
- Anonymous1 decade ago
God most definitely exists----and I can prove it---I don't have time to read your novel-