Theists & Atheists: Do you agree a great "POWER" DOES exist, but gods do NOT exist?

... Here is one argument to show that a great "POWER" DOES exist, but gods do NOT exist. But before we do, let's define/target a god before we bust him. For discussion sake, let's target and bust the god of Moses worshiped by Jews, Christians and Muslims. Let's put out the following... show more ...

Here is one argument to show that a great "POWER" DOES exist, but gods do NOT exist.

But before we do, let's define/target a god before we bust him. For discussion sake, let's target and bust the god of Moses worshiped by Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Let's put out the following query: Is there any evidence anywhere, such as a god particle, a god fossil, a god thingy of some kind, to identify, trace, detect this god, living or dead, since Moses proclaimed him? In academia, in the absence of proof of the existence of something it must be deemed not to exist until verifiable proof is found. Thus, god is held not to exist pending some sort of verifiable evidence. All the paleontologists, astronomers and scientists are still looking. Despite the abuse they receive, many retain their faith and hope to find evidence. But the answer has always been NO. Then by reasonable judgment, god does NOT exist.

Indeed there is much that is amazing, that we are researching, that we don't have answers for. But to conclude that therefore some god (which god) did it, is beyond naive or stupid. It's self deceiving.

Science has shown that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. It has always existed in many forms as matter and dark matter, energy and dark energy, in ways we have yet to discover. The Big Bang was nothing more than a behavior of this always existent energy. We come from energy. We are energy. We take in and expel energy. We will return to energy. Science has revealed all this. There is no need for a god to create that which has always existed, not created, indestructible. So why stick our heads in the sand and say "I'm alive. God is the explanation?" What are you, if not energy? All the universe, see and unseen, is energy. You are a part of that whole. After you die, you will live on, in different dispersed forms of energy. And if maggots crawl out of your dead carcass, it is reasonable for a primitive man to conclude that you have reincarnated. But your perceived god has no power aside from energy. What then is greater, energy or the perceived god. What is an invisible god without the POWER? All that we see, all we know is energy.

Follow up: Then why did Moses proclaim his god? Could there be a motive for Moses to fabricate such a god? How about power, kingdoms, captive virgins, gold and chattels? (Numbers 31:25-54) Isn't that a great motive for outlaws to slaughter and plunder humanity? Then by reasonable judgment, the god of Moses is a fabrication, but a useful tool for men in positions of power as well as the followers who benefit.

The era of superstition is fast coming to an end, as knowledge overcomes ignorance and evidence against it continues to build. It's a reasoned judgment based on the preponderance of the evidence or lack thereof, plus other factors. Not everything is known to man. Therefore, judgment is critical and has been instrumental in the progress of our humanity. Our judgments are successful when they are based on the preponderance of evidence, unbiased knowledge and wisdom. If we rejected the preponderance of evidence in favor of FAITH, the earth would still be flat and at the center of the universe.

Actually, the 'idea of gods' needs prostrating worshipers like yourself to be, otherwise what would it be? Not even a hallucination. Those who create or worship imaginary gods suffer one or more of the following weaknesses: Ignorance, Gullibility, Brainwashing, greed for Reward, Fear of the unknown, Insecurity without a support group or more sinister Motives such kingdoms, power, virgins, gold and chattels (Numbers 31:25-54). Do one or more of these qualify you to be in the faith?

To help you, I would like to share with you these definitions:

FAITH: a vague idea, concept or impression of the unnatural and unreal kind, held steadfast to be true without substantiation or proof.

TRUTH: a fact that can be verified; conformity to reality or actuality.

Other distorted definitions of Faith or Truth used in a play of semantics to distort or sidestep sound reasoning and judgment, I reject for the reasons stated.

Should you worship the POWER of energy? The world already does, only not in ritual form or hallucinations. The ones that process the most energy are the richest and greatest.

Finally, if any theist is sure a god exists, let him/her prove it with intelligent reasoning rather than rant, or forever be silent. Can you show that a god, any god, exists without the unsubstantiated claims in religious books or statements saying god said this or John said that? Or asking to prove a negative? There are those who argue that the signs of god are everywhere. What we see, all we see is the POWER of energy and it's evolution over time. Neither are gods required to create the uncreatable, indestructible. Who then created the gods? We know FAITH is blind. Must we blind ourselves. Is it better to enter the dark cave of FAITH rather than walk towards the light of TR
Update: ... rather than walk towards the light of TRUTH.
Update 2: Losasha - Your intellectual and reasoned response was certainly very convincing.
Update 3: David Carrington - When all is energy, how is it useless?
Update 4: Architect - As I stated, you are energy, and you have will. The Big Bang is energy and the formation of the universe is it's behavior. There is no logic or evidence to suggest the need for a creator to create the uncreatable, indestructible. The universe is not controlled by anything but the behavior of... show more Architect - As I stated, you are energy, and you have will. The Big Bang is energy and the formation of the universe is it's behavior. There is no logic or evidence to suggest the need for a creator to create the uncreatable, indestructible. The universe is not controlled by anything but the behavior of energy. We are energy and our behavior is entirely reactive to the energy that surrounds us.
Update 5: Alexxia - "Fate" as you call it, it energy reacting with energy that yields results. Your mind too, is energy processing energy.
Update 6: David Carrington - You are right. I do not define this power as any god. That would be rather primitive and unintelligent. But observe how important energy is to this world. America is ready to kill for it. It means POWER for the nation. The nation is dependent on it. I see how this nation strives for controlling... show more David Carrington - You are right. I do not define this power as any god. That would be rather primitive and unintelligent. But observe how important energy is to this world. America is ready to kill for it. It means POWER for the nation. The nation is dependent on it. I see how this nation strives for controlling POWER and wealth (accumulation of POWER).
Update 7: Architect - Creatures do recharge. Most by eating. Plants use sunlight. Even a rock exudes energy. Thus it ages, as we all do. You can't make an assumption that doesn't conform to the laws of energy. Energy reacts on it's own terms. Energy has behavior, like you have behavior. Some think they have... show more Architect - Creatures do recharge. Most by eating. Plants use sunlight. Even a rock exudes energy. Thus it ages, as we all do. You can't make an assumption that doesn't conform to the laws of energy. Energy reacts on it's own terms. Energy has behavior, like you have behavior. Some think they have "free will" in some out-of-energy sense. However, they can't jump to the moon. They are limited by the terms of energy. Further, there is no more "free will" in humans than there is in dogs, plants or bacteria. It's all energy reactions. Your "free will" can't exactly control the energy flow through your mind. Optimal energy conditions cause that unconsciously. The output is determined by your energy experiences. Your assumption that energy exists, therefore it had to be created, raises the question, if gods exist, who created them? The fact is, there is no evidence that gods exist, but plenty that says energy is uncreatable, indestructible and always existed. No gods needed. Get well soon.
Update 8: Dear friend - I am happy to continue this discussion with you. I am also very sorry to hear of your suffering and truly wish you well soon. Due to Y/A limits, I must keep this brief. 1) Yes, we do have what we refer to as "free will" but I would like to suggest that it is energy (us) possessing energy.... show more Dear friend - I am happy to continue this discussion with you. I am also very sorry to hear of your suffering and truly wish you well soon. Due to Y/A limits, I must keep this brief.

1) Yes, we do have what we refer to as "free will" but I would like to suggest that it is energy (us) possessing energy. Whatever keeps us alive is the same thing that keeps a dog, plant, bacteria, rocks and stars from disintegrating. It's energy in different forms like the gravity that keeps the moon, earth and sun moving in the energy processes of the universe. It is not unlike the plant that closes to embrace the insect or turns to face the sun. It has a decision process that is part of it's energy. We know that our decision processes are mostly in the brain, but not all. The conscious processing we refer to as "free will". Decision processing could not occur without energy. You are right that we have conscious control but as I said, control of the process is limited to the laws of energy.
Update 9: 2) Yes. Energy laws were observed and expressed by humans and we are still learning. Centers like CERN in Switzerland and Fermilab in Chicago, new observatories and satellites will soon reveal much more. What I suspect you are suggesting without saying it directly is that there is a supernatural energy force in... show more 2) Yes. Energy laws were observed and expressed by humans and we are still learning. Centers like CERN in Switzerland and Fermilab in Chicago, new observatories and satellites will soon reveal much more. What I suspect you are suggesting without saying it directly is that there is a supernatural energy force in existence to which we must give credit for our existence. I appreciate your suggestion but in academia, in the absence of proof of the existence of something it must be deemed not to exist until verifiable proof is found. To date, superstition is the only thing that supports the supernatural. Beyond superstition, there is not a shred of evidence.

Your assumption that the uncreatable, indestructible energy that has always existed has to have a start and therefore the gods created it, doesn't make sense. If all is created then who created the multitude of gods. The supernatural is superstition. While creatures do have the ability to imagine and deceive, nature is pure TRUTH.
Update 10: 3) You say "A sun light energy ends on solar shields and another life for electric energy starts." What you are describing here is the evolution of energy. In the process, no energy was created nor destroyed. Some of the energy in the form of solar energy was reflected, some was absorbed by the... show more 3) You say "A sun light energy ends on solar shields and another life for electric energy starts."

What you are describing here is the evolution of energy. In the process, no energy was created nor destroyed. Some of the energy in the form of solar energy was reflected, some was absorbed by the material (another form of energy) causing it to heat (an energy state), some was transformed from light photons (a form of energy) to cause electrons (another form of energy) to discharge, etc. This is transformation/evolution not unlike everything else. All life is the transformation/evolution of energy. Energy had no beginning or end here. It was, it transformed and it's many new forms can be said to have beginnings and endings, but not energy in it's purist sense.

Best regards. Hope you have a speedy recovery.
Update 11: apostole55 - The knowledge of science has accumulated over centuries. Collective humanity is a greater POWER than the individual, but tiny in the universe of energy. Knowledge increased exponentially in the last 20 years, but is minuscule compared to what will be known in the next 20 years. What I suggest, is... show more apostole55 - The knowledge of science has accumulated over centuries. Collective humanity is a greater POWER than the individual, but tiny in the universe of energy. Knowledge increased exponentially in the last 20 years, but is minuscule compared to what will be known in the next 20 years. What I suggest, is corroborated and verified by testing from the collective intelligentsia. However, the gods have not been verified by testing or evidence yet. In academia, in the absence of proof of the existence of something it must be deemed not to exist until verifiable proof is found. The argument for gods therefore has no merit. I do not assert that I am right. If you are right, I would be most happy. But superstition, fear mongering, unsubstantiated claims and suppression of science is not the way to find in favor of the gods. If you claim the gods exist, the burden of proof by the preponderance of evidence is yours. No need to disprove anything. That all is energy, is proven.
Update 12: Apostate55 - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to you but theists in general regarding fear mongering and the suppression of science. Gods, however, are a superstition. Yes, much is possible, but the gods are not currently plausible. Vishnu as a supernatural entity separate of the... show more Apostate55 - I apologize for the misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to you but theists in general regarding fear mongering and the suppression of science. Gods, however, are a superstition. Yes, much is possible, but the gods are not currently plausible. Vishnu as a supernatural entity separate of the universe of energy is possible, but not plausible. Spirit means breath, and soul means breath plus body. When the breath stops, the body dies. Both are expressions of energy. Energy always survives. We come from energy. We are energy. We consume and discharge energy. We trade energy. The quality of our energy expression is reflected in the salary we earn and the wealth we accumulate. Economies are expressions of energy. When we die our biological energy is transformed by burial, cremation or other. All of our energy in all expressions was always part of the universal energy whole and merely transforms or evolves into maggots, gasses, thermal energy or similar. To be continued...
Update 13: Apostate55 - Is the death diffusion of our biological energy into millions of particles and creatures, a cohesive entity reflecting our supernatural survival? That is a leap of FAITH. Is the universal energy whole a god? Well, our essence is it, all we do is it, and our survival is it. We ritualized it in our... show more Apostate55 - Is the death diffusion of our biological energy into millions of particles and creatures, a cohesive entity reflecting our supernatural survival? That is a leap of FAITH. Is the universal energy whole a god? Well, our essence is it, all we do is it, and our survival is it. We ritualized it in our routines. We sleep, eat, play and work and we organize it by time, day, week. We strive to accumulate it and the more we do, the greater our POWER. Besides the universal energy POWER, we establish our pecking order by our POWER. Poppers and Princes. From what I understand, Vishnu is the universal almighty god that is integral and one with the universe and all creatures. While he is regarded as the creator, all is Vishnu and Vishnu is all. Science has shown that all is energy and energy is all. I am not Hindu, so I cannot say any more on this. Perhaps some day evidence will prove a god. But I'm not holding my breath it will be the god of Moses. To be Continued...
Update 14: Apostate55 - You ask, "Do you think that it was random coincidence that the universe was created..." The universe was not created. The universe is the energy whole and this uncreatable, indestructible energy has always existed. The Big Bang is not creation. It was only a behavior of this energy. There... show more Apostate55 - You ask, "Do you think that it was random coincidence that the universe was created..." The universe was not created. The universe is the energy whole and this uncreatable, indestructible energy has always existed. The Big Bang is not creation. It was only a behavior of this energy. There is no evidence to suggest that the universe was created. The uncreatable cannot be created. There is a strong desire for theists to think in creation terms. When one is deeply indoctrinated, it painful and even terrorizing. Nobody wants to go to hell or face the wrath of god. Jesus may have lived. But much of the gospels and the rest is fabricated or distorted. He spoke of the "Father", never of WHWY, god of Jews. He wanted to convert the Jews. That is a whole other eye opening discussion we will not go into here. Jesus was a preacher, but not a god. Buddha before him was also great. Regards. It's my bed time now.
Update 15: SUPPLEMENTAL - <The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: trimūrti) of the supreme god is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Shiva the destroyer or... show more SUPPLEMENTAL - <The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: trimūrti) of the supreme god is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Shiva the destroyer or transformer." These three deities have been called "the Hindu triad" or the "Great Trinity".>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu

While the Vedas are great stories for superstitious man, a scientific parallel exists. Vishnu could be said to be the energy of the cosmos having a universal form, always existing, always maintained, never lost. Science shows there is one universal and persistent power, energy. Brahma is the creator and Shiva the destroyer and transformer characters of this same universal power. Thus, the constant seeming creations, destruction and transformations of the ever persisting, evolving, universal energy form we observe.

I find this parallel most interesting.
Update 16: Dear Friends - Good Evening. I have just awoken from a great siesta, but still not quite there. I will get back to you with a coffee and a clearer mind. Architect, sorry you are not well. Recovery often takes a while. Take it easy. Apostole55, sorry I didn't pay attention to your name. No offense intended.... show more Dear Friends - Good Evening. I have just awoken from a great siesta, but still not quite there. I will get back to you with a coffee and a clearer mind. Architect, sorry you are not well. Recovery often takes a while. Take it easy. Apostole55, sorry I didn't pay attention to your name. No offense intended. Best Wishes.
Update 17: Hello Friends - Some background about me before I respond to you. I was born and lived Catholic. I am still a member of my local parish and attend church at my wife's request. We agree to indoctrinate our daughter and she will receive First Communion soon. I have read the Bible multiple times and sought hard... show more Hello Friends - Some background about me before I respond to you. I was born and lived Catholic. I am still a member of my local parish and attend church at my wife's request. We agree to indoctrinate our daughter and she will receive First Communion soon. I have read the Bible multiple times and sought hard to find in favor of the god therein. The more I read, the more I am bothered by FAITH. For me to accept FAITH as TRUTH, has been self deceiving. To be just and fair, one thing I won't any longer do, is to judge with bias that something is TRUTH without the preponderance of evidence, or throw it at others to prove that I am wrong. Yet that is what FAITH demands. But what is horrific, Christian FAITH threatens eternal torture in hell for those who seek evidence to confirm the TRUTH of it. Torture by any entity, is more vile than murder. Evil I oppose. No entity that demands submission or threatens torture is good. Is it "free will" choice? Thus I quest for TRUTH. Continued...
Update 18: Hello Architect - 1) You suggest that our ability to make decisions and our power to imagine the impossible or the supernatural beyond our reality "is proof that we are not bound to energy laws ." You say, "Imagination flows can't be limited to Energy laws , you can neither change imagination... show more Hello Architect -

1) You suggest that our ability to make decisions and our power to imagine the impossible or the supernatural beyond our reality "is proof that we are not bound to energy laws ." You say, "Imagination flows can't be limited to Energy laws , you can neither change imagination to reality nor to energy , only transferred into ideas ." OK, let's consider this point you make.

What is imagination? I suggest that imagination is not unlike dreams, hallucinations, mirages, visions, or other thought processes that lead to decisions, art, music, scientific explorations, stories, beliefs, even indecision and fear. The Bible is full of imaginative stories, some admitted and others passed as factual. In the OT, Joseph had dreams he couldn't understand, then became a dream interpreter, and in the NT, John wrote Revelations. Micheal Angelo, Nostradamus and Einstein showed the power of imagination and thinking.

Continued...
Update 19: Cont ... Imagination, dreams, etc. are abilities seen in most creatures, including the gutter rat. They are pictures, sounds, ideas, that occur based on the energy environment that is impressed on the brain. We are not born with great ideas and dreams. Our brain learns by energy expressions and experiences.... show more Cont ...

Imagination, dreams, etc. are abilities seen in most creatures, including the gutter rat. They are pictures, sounds, ideas, that occur based on the energy environment that is impressed on the brain. We are not born with great ideas and dreams. Our brain learns by energy expressions and experiences. MRI's and other scans have shown that these are neuron activity in the brain that occurs mostly subconsciously but also as conscious thought. While a baby may dream about suckling a breast, those who excel in their field of learning, reveal or do great things. Here is a short and funny video of a dog dreaming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2BgjH_CtIA&feature=related

Continued...
11 answers 11