Should Ukraine rob Russia blind?
I will admit to being deeply ashamed as the story of Ukraine's actions became known.
But I thought a bit more about it. First, Russians are always accusing Americans of trying to impose their own standards of conduct on the rest of the world. Second, it has been established that "survival" (or "getting yours") has always been applauded in the countries of the former Soviet Bloc. Indeed, one of their most admired fictional characters is the unabashed thief Ostap Bender. Further: Slavs (and Poles) seem to have more incidents of betrayal than they have moments of total sobriety.
So, if someone were to ask me why I wouldn't back off and not be so judgmental, I wouldn't have an answer. So, I pose the question here: Why not?
Let the name-calling begin. xoxo, your favorite red baiter.
S-G, I can find nothing wrong with your reasoning. However (and I recognise the cold cynicism of this): Who cares if Ukraine becomes a "rogue state"? Have many nations been hurt that badly by being declared "rogue"? And how many cultures do not so some extent glorify the thief?
Woody Allen my hero? Wars have begun over lesser provocations, tovarisch! lol. Further: Why would Ukraine fear a Russian robbery when Pereiaslav is still remembered? And would shunning by Russia keep other European countries from trading with Ukraine? Every country in the world does business with people they would not allow in their own homes.
hate not being able to edit my edits
Maars: Thank you for reminding me of Rick the other day. Dressed To Kill is a classic, and I subscribed to his Daily Gems the other day. Welcome to the rough-and-tumble area. We may snarl a lot here, but we generally mean no harm...or not a Lot of harm.
Mimi, my friend, you get to the heart of the issue: Who can any of us believe.
Kevin: Oh, Ukraine just signed a deal with U-S on uranium, did they? Anything like the deal they signed with the U-S regarding oil exploitation, lol? I'm a corrupting influence on you...
By The Way, we're waiting for the Ukrainian ex-pats to take over Canada from the inside, starting with Saskatchewan. Russians ain't the only sneaky people here.
Welcome Tubby. I am perhaps the meanest anti-red troll on Y&A. But if I am unwilling to burn my own flesh & blood at the stake as quickly as I would a Russian, I lose the right to call myself an honest man.
Speaking of evenhandedness: Under the circumstances, maybe Cosmic Leonid *is* worth another look, lol.
- KevinLv 61 decade agoFavorite Answer
Ah, my friend Toly.. I tried to resist, but...
I too will agree with Mimi on who we should believe, but will disagree with her on how Russia is just trying to raise prices. Both sides are playing the game to look good, and make the other look bad.
Russia is still offering Ukraine gas at much less than European prices ($250 vs. $413), and they pay Ukraine less than European transport prices ($1.80 vs. $8). Ukraine wants preferred prices for gas, but European transport prices. I say that if Ukraine wants to be fully part of Europe and NATO, and cut ties to Russia, let them pay European prices, and let Russia pay them European transport prices.
If Ukraine can better their position through theft, then what the heck. Isn't that how a free market economy works? Isn't that what they learned from their new friends the Americans?
After all, Russia is no different than America [edit for tubbys satisfaction] in such matters.
We go into places like Iraq in the name of democracy, when our real interests are oil, Or we go into Ukraine in the name of democracy, when our real insterest is in their Urainium supplies (we just signed a deal with them a couple weeks ago to "protect and secure" their Urainium).
Russia is just more opportunistic and sneaky. They set the stage, and wait for someone to fall through the open trapdoor in the stage. Then they say "oh, gee... who left the trapdoor open?"
We rob to better our position, Russia robs to better theirs. Ukraine just needs to learn how to do it without looking like a 2 bit street gangster.
Now back to convincing Obama to invade Canada. After all, the Canadians have had it too good for too long ;-)
--- Edit --
tubbys - Read the following two paragraphs to my statement so you understand the context of my statement. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Funny how Americans think we are the only ones who aren't lied to by their government, that our government is totally honest, and the rest of the world loves us.
The US has no interest in Iraq's oil, or Ukraine's Uranium. We really DO want to protect Europe and Russia from Iran's nuclear missles. And none of that $700 billion to the banks will go to overpaid executives, either.
Sorry to break it to you, but the rest of the world disagrees with you.
-- Edit 2 --
Tolstoyevsky - I see on Euronews today that Yushchenko claims Prime Minister Tymoshenko had no right to agree to let EU monitors keep an eye on the gas line. I also see that Yushchenko's relative's "intermediary gas trading company" is interfering with "negotiations" (hmm... appears it isn't Ukraine robbing the people, but Yushchenko and family).
I also see that they today changed the official language in Vancouver BC from English to Russian. I hear Seattle is next in line ;)
-- Edit 3 --
LOL.. According to Russia (reported live a few minutes ago), they have discovered that Ukraine is apparently robbing their own people blind too. http://www.kyivpost.com/nation/32948
And for the nay-sayers - I calculated what my mother-in-law paid for gas last year, and Medvedev is correct. But hey - Yushcenko's brother deserves some profit.
Oh, and after Ukraine told the EU that there was "nothing to monitor", the EU discovered that Ukraine has tapped into the European gas lines with "manual pumping stations" (my best translation, as I don't fully understand Czech). Ukraine got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
-- Edit --
wschmerz - The quotes (") would indicate an idiomatic phrase. I know they aren't squeezing a rubber bulb to siphon off the gas. But you have to wonder why gas goes in the East side of their "transit pipeline", and never leaves the West side But alas, I know the answer already (direct from Yuschenko and Naftogaz) - "it really isn't a transit line, it is a domestic line. We can't get gas from the transit line on the Russian border, to the transit pumping station on Romania's border". But look at the pipeline map - the transit lines and domestic lines aren't tied together.
But hey - Like my pal Tolstoy, I only stir the pot to see what cooks. I know Yushchenko is an honest and forthright politician, who has the best interest of the Ukrainian people in mind.Source(s): Read all editorial posts with extreme sarcasm. (My sources are direct news feeds from Russia *and* Ukraine, as well as personal experience living in Ukraine and dealing with the thei... er, politicians)
- wschmerzLv 51 decade ago
Mimi is absolutely right.
There's an economical conflict between Russia and Ukraine. You give all your attention to Russian sources and (och, how surprisingly?!) find that Ukraine is guilty in everything (including Kenny slaughtering) and you become deeply ashamed :)))))))
In Ukrainian it is called "комплекс меншовартості".
I can recommend you (if you read Russian) to start from reading this interesting interview: http://www.svobodanews.ru/Transcript/2009/01/09/20...
It is not as simple as that bull*** like "Argh, Ukraine stole our gas!!!", but it is much more informative.
2Kevin: sorry, but those "manual pumping stations" is an old urban legend. Can you imagine the pressure in gas pipeline? How large explosion will happen if one will try to attach you "manual pump" to the pipe?
- SunnysideLv 71 decade ago
I have no idea who is "right" and who is "wrong".
For decades before they got their independence, the Ukrainian people suffered at the hands of the soviets (a.k.a. the Russians). The soviets committed genocide against the Ukrainian people, raped the Ukrainian lands of resources, and then enslaved the remaining Ukrainian people. Before than, the people in Western Ukraine suffered (albeit to a lesser extent) at the hands of the Austro-Hungarians.
(And yes, there are those who dispute stalin's genocide of the Ukrainian people just as there are those who dispute the Jewish holocost).
I know that the Russians alive today are not responsible for the atrocities of their parents and grandparents, but wealth to be seen in their cities today was gathered, to a great extent, from the Ukrainians peasants during the time of the soviet empire.
I know that two wrongs don't make a right, but IF the Ukrainians are not in the "right", I don't care. I would call it the start of payback, or a down payment towards restitution.
For me, wondering if the Russians might be right in this oil disagreement is like wondering if the khmer rouge, osama, or the nazis might have been right about something.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Don't know how to answer that but will tell you one thing----I have good friend in a fantastic ministry over there in Ukraine. They also have a church in Moscow. It's the Good News Church and they have a TV program called, "Good News with Rick Renner." So, maybe you'll check it out. The web site is www.renner.com
All for now.
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- f15mosLv 41 decade ago
You seem to have a penchant for rambling. Is Woody Allen your peronal hero?
I believe answer is in your question, the way it is posed - "No, Ukraine should not rob Russia blind".
But this is what I think is the better strategy for Russians. They should say to Ukraine f*ck you, steal all you want, but proceed full speed with alternate route for the gas to Europe. Quickly but silently, and at one point when the failover is ready - charge the suckers same price as Europe and if they disagree shut the pipe down. This way there will be less nervousness in the West and better image for Russia. The way it is now - Russia depends on Ukraine and Ukraine takes advantage of it. Given general anti-Russian sentiment Ukraine will always will look like "poor victim of a strong bully from the east".
"Тамбовский волк тебе товарищ". I adore Woody Allen, so it was a compliment in a way.
- 1 decade ago
I would like to think that most other Ukrainians are also ashamed of their current rulers. They have not done well for their nation so far. International theft would further risk pushing Ukraine into the "rogue state" category.
- 1 decade ago
Im not going to justify ukrainian leaders here because they haven't
conduct too wise politic lately and it's been effecting Ukraine and it's people badly.
But that would be WRONG just blindly trust russian medea, which is well known has NEVER been objective and free source of information since it is100% under control of Kremlin.
So IF Medvedev says that Ukraine is stealing gas from Russian pipe lines and that should be Ukraine to blame on shutting down gas stream to Europe - should we believe that statement blindly - never in the world!!
Ukrainian authorities on their turn are saying that they have NO technical abilities to shut down gas on their side - it could ONLY be done from Russia side!!!
So WHO should we believe here?? NO ONE.
But lets see who is going to take advantage of all that crisis situation??
Ukraine? Europe?? I don't think so!! - Russia!!!
This crisis is working totally in Russia favor since the result of it is going to be raising price of energy resources (oil first of all).
And since oil price dropped dramatically and Russia is in desperate situation since it's budget has been based on it, it has perfect sense for Russia to provoke a scandal like that!! Plus it is not a secret for anyone that Russia has been trying to use it's resources for political pressure, threatening smaller neighboring countries if they refuse to play alone with "big bear".
- 1 decade ago
Well. that is how the cookies crumble.
If you friendly to the Bear, you get some privileges in Taiga.
Like free berries and some discounted mushrooms.
If you keep kicking the Bear, shouting him down and looking for friendship with the pack of wolfs instead - then the forest will become an off limits place for you.
And yes, the price of food in the forest will triple.
So, you ask your "big friends" wolfs for help.
Oh shut, no help!
They starving themselves.
So my dear wolf, coyote or whatever canine runs in your prairies, the bear does not take a theft of his food in friendly manner and someone will pay dearly for it soon.
Just relax, sit down and observe.
We will see soon.
- MendeleyevLv 41 decade ago
Russian pipelines run thru Ukraine. Ukraine stores Russian gas in offpeak seasons so that it can be closer to Europe for delivery. Russia charges Ukraine as of yesterday, $448 per 1,000 cubic feet of natural gas.
Meanwhile Belarus, with no storage responsibilities and only limited pipeline capability pays $148 per 1,000 cubic feet.
Just what was your question again?Source(s): American journalist in Moscow http://russianreport.wordpress.com/
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Kevin, "Russia is no different than America"? I can't believe you just said that.