Are Chabad Messianics Jews consider apostates like the Messianic Jews?
Considering the reason given against the Messianic Jews saying they worship a deadman and believe he will return and is Gods son. Yet the Chabad Messianic Jews worship their rebbe, say he'll return, and that he is God and they actively and openly attempt to convert other Jews! Whats the difference?
Q&A with David Berger - Veteran Brooklyn College History Professor David Berger has a reputation for being both a scholar and an outstanding lecturer. A kippa-wearing Orthodox Jew, Berger received rabbinic ordination from the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary at Yeshiva University. Despite his soft-spoken scholarly demeanor, Berger is passionate about his exposé of Chabad. It is, he says, of "transcendent importance."
Does mainstream Chabad really believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a Jesus-like diety? - Religious mentors in the major yeshivas of Chabad in both Israel and the United States, publications issued by mainstream Chabad, and influential, highly educated Lubavitch laymen, take the following assertions literally: The supremely righteous, of whom the Rebbe and Moses are the chief exemplars, annul their own essence to the point where their entire Essence is that of God. It is permissible to bow to them with this understanding.
For this reason, the Rebbe is omniscient, omnipotent, and entirely without limits. He is "indistinguishable" from God. Because he is a transparent window for pure divinity, a "man-God," "when you speak to him, you speak to God."
Nevertheless, what about those who insist that Chabad's messianist camp is a minority faction? - Regrettably, this assertion is pure propaganda. In Crown Heights, the main synagogue at Lubavitch headquarters is a messianist stronghold where the Rebbe's messiahship is proclaimed at every prayer service.
In Israel, the rabbi of Kfar Chabad signed a rabbinic ruling that Jewish law requires belief in the Rebbe's Messiahship, and the major columnist of the journal Beis Moshiach is a mentor in Yeshiva Tomchei Temimim there.
The large Chabad school system in Safed teaches the Rebbe's Messiahship. Over 60 Israeli rabbis, including chief rabbis of several towns, signed the messianist ruling. Recognizing Chabad messianists as Orthodox rabbis in good standing abolishes Judaism's criteria for identifying the Messiah and awards victory to Christianity on a key issue in the historic Jewish-Christian debate. One does not undermine Judaism in order to save it.
Source JPost interview with Rabbi Berger by Jacob Neusner
Follow up question, I gave the source the Jpost has many articles so I guess they must a very unreliable source, along with the Chief Rabbi who has issued a warning to them that they are very close to being apostates, and rabbi Berger is a very well respected Rabbi within Judaism so maybe your not even Jewish, for it seems that L'Chaim and Sara are aware of their actions! This questions kinda shows us all who is really Jewish on here.
Very interesting site, you can even write and ask for a blessing from a deadman!!! Who is claim King!! and going to rise from the Dead!!
- 1 decade agoBest Answer
Many will say yes many will no and many will say maybe, you have asked the question one should never ask of many Jews at once lol. Personally I feel some of them are very much boarderline and Rabbi Berger is very wise man, he doesn't usally comment without facts. He has had many meetings with the Chabad Messianics and made them all public to expose what is going on. Rabbi Berger is Torah Jew is gives not a personal view, but use the Torah to show the answer and the wrongness of their chosen path. There is not much difference that is why even the Chief Rabbi in Israel is now taking more actions, because their actions have taken them very close to being outside of Judaism just as the Messianic Jews have become. Both groups have strayed from the Torah. All one can do is to pray for their return back to Torah, so they may once again be counted as Jewish.
- 1 decade ago
Chabad messanic beliefs are done Jewish style, not Christian style.
All of the considered messiahs have been disclaimed. The Chabad doesn't worship their dead leader. They honor & admire him the way we any good leader. They don't consider him a son of God or God in any way. They don't expect him to return. They actively try to get less religous jews to practice orthodox judaism, not convert to some other religion. Once he died without fulfilling the messanic requirements, he was disclaimed as the messiah.
They were just hopeful during his lifetime that he'd be the next Moses figure. A human that would do great things with God's help. That's the Jewish messiah concept.
The idea of the "rebbe"chabade is not what they are trying to get you to believe, when they attempt to convert. It's putting in two dishwashers so you can keep kosher "properly".
I see you're trying to sort this out. The difference is in the messiah concept, also it's importance or lack of, to the religion. The Jewish concept is just a person like Moses who will come & do great things (there's a list), & create a world to come on earth. Judaism does not have an concept of heaven or hell or original sin or need for salvation by another person. We are responsible for our own sins & given a way to atone (that doesn't require blood sacrifices). Basic Jewish theology is quite different than Christian even though the morality is so similar. The Christian Christ concept doesn't fit into Jewish theolgy. It conflicts with it. I've noticed on R&S what Chistians are taught about Judaism is often so far off, that it explains why it's hard to understand what Jews are thinking. Also, Judiasm focuses on how to live life now in a good way so this concept is much less important to us.
You've got several errors in logic:
- You are trying to attack us. It's an obvious set up to be mean to us, & force us into an argument defending ourselves, instead of honest conversation with honest intent.
- They don't worship Rebbe. They believe he became an elevated human being -- still human, but so good that the ultimate Kabbalistic goal of bringing God essense into your human self has happened. You're not getting the fine points here that are glaring to a Jew.
- A article does not 'fact or truth' make in Judaism. Jews explore ideas & have opinions. It's a common Christian error tojudge or vilify Jews on some single person's article's opinons. Without checking out the full picture. So, what exactly is the agreement signed? Until I see the wording, I can not agree with the author's judgement point blank. He may have a problem with the Chabad & be trying to undermine something he doesn't like & exaggerating.
- The author's work is an exaggerated statement in an attempt to make a point. To make readers think about this chabad behavior & to assess it. It does not mean that it's gone over the top yet into "messianic christian" land. It means think, have an opinion, discuss. Especially the Chabad, to make sure their wording & ideas are clearly stated so that they can't be interpreted as over the top.
- You still see nothing about Son of God or returning or salvation for others sins.
What else. I know there was more that didn't work in there in yours or his logic.
Tehilla - she's pointing out a 10 year old problem? So it proves my point. Berger's article's & actions helped keep Chabad thinking & steering in the right direction...by pointing out in exaggerated form an essential point of Judaism to them.Source(s): I've been to Chabad stuff. It's pure Jewish.
- Tehilla VLv 41 decade ago
First of all--
Chabadniks NEVER WORSHIPPED THE REBBE.
Never. Ever. I'm not sure where you get this info--but it's wrong.
And they certainly never said he was G-d! The idea would never occur to a real Jew--to someone who knows the Torah.
Hint: The messiah will not be G-d. He won't be the "son of G-d". There's no hint in Torah that he'll be anything but a man. In fact, it is un-Jewish to believe that G-d could or would be a man. The messiah will be an ordinary human being--he won't be supernatural, he won't 'return', and he certainly will not be worshipped. ALL of these are purely Christian concepts.
BTW--I don't think that there are any Chabadniks left who think the Rebbe was the messiah. If there are, they're hugely out-numbered.
I've read several of your questions tonight, and you seem to be emotionally invested in putting Judaism down.
Edit: Nice quotes. All of them are quoting someone else's interpretation of Chabad writings. They don't quote the offending Chabad writings themselves. If Chabad believes that the Rebbe was the messiah, these writings shouldn't be too hard to find.
Now: To the very limited extent that any of this is true, it is VERY old news. For a year or two after the Rebbe's death, SOME Chabadniks continued to believe that he was messiah. That belief has almost completely been abandoned. There WOULD have been a problem if Chabadniks had continued to believe this--but they didn't. As I said previously, they've almost completely abandoned this idea.
You're reporting on a 'problem' that never fully developed, and that disappeared over 10 years ago. So I ask you, Kate: What is your motivation? Why are you so incredibly...eager...to paint Jews in a bad light? Hmm?
I know Chabadniks, have been to Chabad, and can assure you: Their goal is to bring non-observant Jews back to observance.
Chabad is now part of normative Judaism. But it does show you, doesn't it, Kate?--just how Christianity broke from Judaism and went so terribly wrong. It's the same pattern: A charismatic leader...followers who loved him and had a hard time letting go...
The difference is that Chabadniks are grounded in Judaism and Torah, and brought themselves back from the precipice of apostacism. The early Christians knew almost nothing of Torah, and fell right into idolatry--and never came back.
Another Edit: I was thinking about this question last night, and about the Christian tendency to seize on anything written by an Orthodox Jew and believe that it reflects the Orthodox point of view. The fact is that Judaism is well-known for accepting a variety of opinions. Just because you can find one Rabbi who spouts a particular line, that doesn't mean that it is a reflection of how most Rabbis feel...or even that it is necessarily true. Jews have no problem accepting differences of opinion--so you could probably find a Jew who would argue almost ANY position.
But Christians love to find an odd Orthodox opinion and seize upon it, claiming that it accurately represents Judaism. Then they ignore what we Jews say--because they have a quote, after all! One quote apparently trumps the oral testamony of many Jews! (And besides, Christians really think they understand judaism better than Jews do, anyway...)
Way back in the past--back when I might have attended a church like Cornerstone--I did attend Oral Roberts University. I knew a man there named Carlton Pearson. He was OR's right-hand man, as it were--he was musically talented, close to the Roberts family, and privileged to be among the elite at ORU. He was someone who anyone would presume to be credentialed enough to speak for Christianity.
Now he's a pastor of a church in Tulsa, and he teaches that Jesus' death saved not just Christians--but everyone! He believes that when he died, his blood covered the sins of the whole world, even those who don't accept Jesus.
I guess I could quote Rev. Pearson and claim that this was a normative Christian belief. After all, he has the best of credentials, right? He had the backing of a famous leader, a fine Christian education, and now he's a minister... Whatever he says about Christianity MUST be true. Right?
I'm sure you'd tell me that what he says is NOT true about Christianity. And you know what? I'd believe you. Why? Because I expect that you know enough about your own religion to love it and want to portray it accurately. I RESPECT that.
You don't extend the same respect to the Jews here, though. You're sure that you know our religion better than we do. You don't believe what we say about the religion we love. You believe that YOU know best--and we're dishonestly trying to put the best face on things. Right?
I used to live in San Antonio, and I always thought my rabbi's involvement with your church was a huge mistake. I like Christians and have had good Christian friends. But you don't get into bed with people who are intent on converting you, IMO.
Of course, my rabbi was convinced that your minister--Hagee--believed that Jews were fine under our own covenant. My rabbi actually BELIEVED your minister. Now I ask you: Was he wrong to believe your minister? Was he wrong to believe that Hagee was motivated solely by a love for Israel, and not a desperate desire to 'save' Jewish souls? And what will my former Rabbi think about the attitude of one of Hagee's congregants?
- Anonymous1 decade ago
The answer is no. There have been many false messiahs over the centuries, beginning with Bar Kochba who was thought by some--including Rabbi Akiva--to be the messiah. But all of these false messiahs **were ordinary men and were treated as such**.
However, Rabbi Schneersohn was just an ordinary man, and **no one** believes that he is "G-d's son." That's something that either you or someone else made up. The Chabad Jews certainly do **not** say that he is G-d--that is the ultimate heresy in Judaism.
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- Anne HatzakisLv 61 decade ago
Answer: Chabad Jews do not worship their Rebbe -- nor do they say he is the G-d of Israel.
- says that no human can ever die for the sins of others
- says that Jesus died for the sins of mankind
- says that all humans are born pure, and innocent
- says that all humans are born with 'original sin'.
- says that G-d would never allow/enable a 'virgin birth'
- says that Mary gave birth, though a virgin
- says that no man gets a 'second coming'
- says that Jesus will have a 'second coming'
- says that every human should speak directly to G-d
- Jesus claims in the 'new testament' that the 'only way' to G-d is via him
- says G-d is one, indivisable, cannot be separated into three aspects/incarnations
- speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
- says that we are ALL equally G-d's children
- says that Jesus was 'god's son' above all others
- has no concept of 'hell'
- *some* Christians non believers to 'hell'
- has no 'devil', the Jewish 'satan' is just an ordinary angel, under G-d's control
- describes 'satan' as a devil and 'fallen' angel
- the 'messiah' will be a normal, mortal man who must fulfill all the Jewish messianic prophecies in one normal, mortal lifetime
- Jesus was the 'messiah' and will fulfill the prophecies when he 'returns'
- says that the righteous of ALL faiths will reach 'gan eden' or 'garden of eden'.
- *some* Christians insist that only those who 'know Christ' can reach heaven
- forbids Jews from trying to convert anyone to Judaism
- believes in actively 'witnessing' and encouraging people to convert to Christianity
These are just some of the differences between Judaism and Christianity. Only those unaware of such differences could possibly state that the two faiths are 'similar or, even more bizarrely, that they are the 'same'.
- 1 decade ago
Yes they are, for they like the Messianic Jews are very much misguided, hopefully they both will return to Judaism of their fathers! There is no difference both of their leaders are dead!Source(s): Torah
- 1 decade ago
No! And this is nothing other than double standards.
A Jewish friend of mine who has since died & received
Yahshua as her Messiah before she did. ( Thank you Abba)
She used to write prayers & send them to the organisation
that deals with this & her prayers were supposedly put on the
Rebbe's grave & she was convinced they were answered by
the Rebbe. So, so much for praying to a dead person & I am
sure many Jews do the same, all Sonia's friends did & do
the same to this very day.
With Messiah Yahshua, we know for sure we are not dealing
with a dead person, but our Risen Messiah. He infact is a
mediator just like Moshe & all prayers are directed to YHWH
our Abba, who answers our prayers.
More than double standards!
- HatikvahLv 71 decade ago
The Chabadniks target secular Jews, not gentiles.
- 1 decade ago
Formal answer: no.
So far, Israel Forever and Hestia have given correct answers to your question. You can keep trying to justify "Messianic Jews" to whomever you want, but it won't work.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
yes because the true messiah has not come