Do you think people who enjoy the whole concept of torturing another human being are mentally ill?
I posted a similar question yesterday, the Rightwingnut sexually repressed report freaks had it deleted.
So, I have no choice but to re-word it and post it again.
Do you? do you think any human being perpetrating a practice which is illegal all over the world, and which the United States has actually tried and hung the Japanese for, are perverse, sick people?
Please keep in mind that our own military has testified repeatedly that torture does not give reliable intelligence, and therefore there is positively NO "reason" for it to be used whatsoever.
Except for the sadistic satisfaction. There is no other explanation.
Captain: So...you're calling Jesus a p*ssy? How very...interesting.
#1) How many thousands of times do you have to be told that the people being tortured ARE NOT TERRORISTS. THEY ARE PEOPLE SNATCHED OFF THE STREETS AND OUT OF THEIR HOMES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT FOR THE DAMN BOUNTY MONEY OFFERED BY UNCLE SAM.
#2) You are talking about revenge, not "intelligence gathering" which makes you exactly, precisely like the very terrorists you are wanting to kill
#3) It is not the job or responsibility of American soldiers to carry out "punishment" or "revenge." What is this - the Dark Ages?
Silver - A most excellent, well-reasoned, articulate response. And I am very sincere in my interpretation of those individuals who "support" torture as being people who are deeply sexually repressed.
COPPER CAT: I bow in respect and awe at your factual, rational, logical, sane contribution. My overwhelming gratitude goes to you for providing all these links. Thank you for the excellent rebuttal against that ONE name the torture sadists keep trotting out as "proof" that torture works.
Ladies and gentlemen? Please read this information provided. Do you consider yourself to be a rational person? Then you cannot maintain the same belief when you are confronted with evidence which flies in the face of that belief.
UNLESS YOU JUST LIKE TO HURT PEOPLE.
To gardensallday: I apologize to you personally for hurting your feelings, but I do not take back my question.
I standfastly assert that a person who would intentionally cause pain to another human being does, indeed, have something in their minds and souls that is not right.
I *did* take "introductory classes in psychology" and I remember no studies of the kind you refer to. I'll be happy to read anything on the subject which you would care to email me.
FYI - I have a bi-polar person in my family, and have attended the NAMI family education course on psychological disorders. I'm hardly tossing around "mentally ill" indiscriminately. I'm far more familiar with mental illness and how it affects all those connected with the person than I would ever care to be.
To gardensallday: Thank you sincerely for your additional post. And actually, as I was reading it, I began to remember the "experiment" about shocking that you have given us here. I do remember that. And as I emailed you just a little while ago, I totally agree with you that "normal" people can be gotten to do horrible things to other people. The SS guards during the holocaust nightmare had families to feed, too, and I'm quite sure they thought they were "normal" too.
Blatant, outright, clear, TORTURE does not fit under either of these categories.
An "experiment" where people were told they were "helping someone to learn" is most certainly not the same as DROWNING someone with your own two hands.
Being a "part of an organization" - even though that organization is charged with the genocide of an entire people - still lets the individual off the hook because they are nameless, faceless.
What is happening with torture currently is "hands on" approach.
- Copper CatLv 41 decade agoFavorite Answer
Yes - I think there is something seriously wrong with anyone who enjoys torture or the concept of torture.
The vast majority of experts and experience to date confirm that information obtained from torture is generally unreliable, but the prevailing current political and government opinion is still in favor of using torture because "they feel that sometimes it works" - sorry, that is not good enough for me. US expert Douglas Johnson states “Nearly every client at the Centre for Victims of Torture, when subjected to torture, confessed to a crime they did not commit, gave up extraneous information or supplied names of innocent friends or colleagues to their torturers.”
Then there is the ticking time bomb scenario - a nuclear bomb is set to go off in NYC, you have one of the terrorists in your possession - what do you do? Here is another example - let's imagine a situation where a child molester and murder has kidnapped a 10 year old girl. You have the child molester's brother, but he is refusing to give you any information, even though you are pretty sure he can help you, and time is running out. Would you be willing to resort to torturing the brother in hopes of getting information to try and save the life of an innocent child? What if the kidnapped girl was your daughter? What would you do?
Then there is the difference between intelligent interrogation techniques and torture - some interrogation techniques are borderline torture, but is there a line? I think so. So maybe the real question is when do you cross the line? My answer is only when you have a damn good reason - and only if you are willing to pay the price. And I think the price should be severe, because otherwise we will become exactly the same as the people we are fighting against.
I've thought about all of this, I've read a lot of articles and done a lot of research and I'm with Scott Adams on this one - "I want some frigging evidence that it works. Then we can talk about morality."
Our government has been doing this for almost seven years now, so where's the beef? The liberals have trotted out credible expert after expert and example after example to prove that torture does not work - so how about it? Again, I've done extensive research on this, and although there are many instances of certain interrogation techniques being successful, I have found no evidence of actual instances where U.S. torture saved lives in the last 7 years - and several examples where information obtained under torture by the U.S. has proved to be false. All the current pro-torture articles I could find contained either political rhetoric and unsubstantiated opinions with no hard facts and/or made reference to theoretical scenarios - no specific examples, no hard facts, no credible expert references. Most of the liberal articles also contain unsubstantiated opinions and political rhetoric - but they also have credible experts and specific examples.
So does anyone have hard evidence / examples that U.S. torture is working to save lives? And does anyone have hard evidence that this works better than intelligent interrogation techniques that do not cross the line? And before you say Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the only thing obtained from his torture were after the fact confessions of guilt - see the 2nd through 6th links below. Additionally, these links indicate Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured by the Pakistani government, probably with CIA observers or in a joint taskforce with the CIA - I could find nothing about torture leading to his capture - if you have a link, please post.
Some links to get you started, if you are interested in researching this yourself:
- Anonymous1 decade ago
You know, I hate it when people throw that term around: "mentally ill."
I am severely mentally ill. And I take care of abandoned animals. I sew doll clothes for little girls. I bake pies. I sell tomatoes at the farmer's market. I have bipolar disorder.
What mental illness is it that makes people torture others? Torture disorder? How about, ANYONE can torture another human being if they are taught to do it.
There are plenty of psychological studies showing that people who torture are little different than those who won't, and that the VAST MAJORITY of people will torture others if they are told to by someone in authority. I do not remember the names of these studies, but anyone taking intro to psychology in college will have heard of them.
So quit stigmatizing people who happen to have a brain illness (such as depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, schizophrenia etc) by confusing them with people who have extremely horrible behaviors! Most people with mental illness never hurt a fly.
EDIT Here is the info (I don't have my old text handy, this is from memory) The first two studies are very famous. VERY FAMOUS. If you want to know more, it shouldn't be too hard to find them. They were cited with respect to the Abu Ghraib prison.
1) a group of subjects were told (individually) that a person needed treatment for a learning disorder. An actor was seated in a chair in a room and the subject was in a room looking at that person thru glass. There was a machine there that they were told administered electric shocks, and this was to help the person "learn" better. Two (? I think it was 2) docs in white lab coats told the person to administer the shock, at the lowest setting. Everyone did. The actor yelped or something, showed discomfort. Then apparently he didn't learn good enuf, so the docs asked the person to turn the dial up and give a harder shock. Almost everyone did. Subsequently, people would give stronger and stronger shocks when asked to do so, and the actor was showing extreme pain. Finally, ALMOST EVERYONE was willing to give a very strong shock, which was at the top of the dial, said danger etc etc, they knew it could be fatal. Even a little old lady gave the "fatal" shock. These subjects were very disturbed after, you could never do this study nowadays. This study showed how authority figures can get you to do anything.
Another famous study was of prison guards and their prisoners. College students were recruited and randomly assigned as prison guards or prisoners. I think this study was just in classrooms someplace, not in a jail or anything, but I'm not positive. Anyway, within 3 DAYS the study had to be stopped, because the prison guards were so abusive and the prisoners were having severe breakdowns because it turns out the whole situation of total authority over others is structurally going to cause abuse. This is why prisons and mental hospitals (less nowadays) are so abusive. The professor(s) who did the study was very very disturbed, because these were nice kids, just randomly recruited off the campus.
Then another study I read about in Psychology Today in about 1985, showed exactly how people train others to torture. They have it all down. Dehumanize others (start with stereotypes, then move on so they aren't human) get you to do some little bad things, make you part of the group, etc. Just like getting someone in a cult, as I recall. Anyway, the researchers concluded that virtually anyone will torture. The person who originally cooks up the idea is a horrible person, then they rope in others who are nice folk, and they just twist them.
That's why I speak out on behalf of people with mental illness, or Mexicans (lots of prejudice there now, with the illegal immigration problem). Because labelling and prejudice dehumanize others, and it makes it easier for people to choose to hurt them.
- HPLv 41 decade ago
Yes, and it seems so blatantly obvious, just review those infamous pictures from Abu- Gharib. The degrading and sadistic poses accompanied by the laughter and smiles on the faces of those people (Lindy Englund, etc.) clearly exhibits inhumane and sadistic behaviors that would indicate a rather profound mental illness. Final point, there was NO intelligence being gathered there or in any such similar circumstance, hence it was torture for tortures sake, pure and simple sadism.
- 1 decade ago
Yes, I do believe so. And I believe there are many reasons why such an illness can have so many people in its grip.
In your ill-fated, previous question, you tried to link torture and approval of torture with sexual frustration.
Sexual frustration is at a very high level. One reason is the prevalence of religions that stress the Ten Commandments over Christ's gospel of love and forgiveness.
Lest you or anyone think this is the only kind of Christianity there is, you might be interested in researching the writings of a Scotsman, Francis Hutcheson, whose philosophy opened up a new path for Christians of the European Enlightenment.
Other reasons for general frustration are the prevalence of obesity, and the fact that people are very stressed out and are working long hours.
In addition, the Bush Regime and its propaganda machine, as well as the "entertainment" media, have fueled fear-based, either-or, us vs. them, very aggressive modes of thinking.
I think that behind all of this, behind Bush's rise to power, is a society that at the end of the 20th Century reached a certain pitch of affluence. Affluence led to mental and physical laziness and to the rise of "entertainment" media in the form of violent movies, games, books, and much of the Internet. These media feed on and perpetuate the lowest common denominator in human thinking.
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- Anonymous4 years ago
Only if it is a woman who took my man. Just kidding. Torture is not the way to find out anything and it is not only cruel but it is bringing damnation to the one who is doing the torturing. If not in hell then in his or her mind forever.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Yes and I also believe that we don't need to use crusty, borrowed KGB techniques to get information. Torture also doesn't readily yeild accurate or necessary information.
Look, for example, at the private sector and Madison Ave. We spend so much time studying how to persuade people to buy things, to do thing, and we have so much creative talent. Terrorists think outside the box, why can't we when it comes to information gathering?
- Shadow KnightLv 71 decade ago
Any human being that voluntarily inflicts pain on another without the intention to help him medically and physically is not sane or respectable.
- Matt WLv 61 decade ago
Yes, but then again I believe in moral absolutes. I cannot accept that there is any personal justification that warrants torturing another human, in any time period, in any culture, etc., etc. This inhibits me from having a "conversation" with those who believe that such practices are acceptable (e.g. militants of any stripe - currently Islamic ones)
- Me, TooLv 61 decade ago
I think our Armchair Warriors lack adventure and excitement in their lives. I think they lack compassion, mercy or pity, and enjoy the idea of being conquerors, as long as other people do the fighting. I think they have confused religion with aggression. I think they disobey the Ten Commandments and are marching on a path to destruction.
Yes, I think they enjoy a touch of sadism in their beliefs.
- EstherLv 51 decade ago
No, they are not mentally ill. They use it when it's necessary . What they use is weatherboarding. That is not torturing. When our enemy's capture us, they use all kinds of terrible things to us, nothing compare to weatherboarding. United States need to do what ever it takes to have us and our families secure. Believe me if you or one of your family members get capture, Lord for bides, you can be sure they will not be using weatherboarding on them. I respect what ever the Uninet States does to keep us secure at all times. What they use it's not torture at all. It's kind of scary but does not compare to the awful things they have done to our soldiers when capture. I think that, first of all we are too kind to that evil government. At least the United States have not killed anyone with this so called "torture". In other countries they will kill instead of heavy duty questioning. Which is what we really do here.
With all your respect, but this is how I feel. Proud of our soldiers and military, and proud to be an American. I will always back them up no matter what, after all this is where I live, where my kids were born, where I can say what ever I want,and feel free to do so... love, and Merry Christmas....