would adam and eve NOT have had free will if the evil tree was never created?
if god didn't ever plant the tree but still gave adam and eve the free will, what would be the problem?
~god plants tree
~god says don't touch
~god creates serpent
~god makes serpent tempt eve (even satan in job cannot do anything unless god allows it!)
~god knows eve will fall, and bring adam down
god is cruel.
JB, try reading what i wrote. adam and eve had NO choice! god designed them to fail.
memnoch, there is no reason to believe that they couldn't procreate in the garden. did all the animals sin too? or were they screwing in the garden?
PAPA, you do realize that you're saying because adam chose eve over god trillions of people have to suffer... where do we find out that god is omnipotent and loving? sounds quite impotent, jealous, and hateful.
CCCHEVY, they HAD free will already. why did god need to "test" it? he already knew what would happen. he wasn't surprised. i wouldn't even be surprised if i designed something to fail and it did after i set up the right conditions. remember, god planted the tree. god created the serpent. the whole original sin was caused by god's trickery!
JACQUES, i've met him and i don't like him. he's evil. he killed millions of people in the OT (yes, i actually HAVE read the bible). the whole adam and eve thing was his fault. he damned all of men forever because of adam and eve, remember? but it was god who set up the entire scene! adam and eve did not need to be tested like some science project, god would have already known what they would do in that situation. god "tests" and man goes to hell. now i also ask you this: would you praise god if there was no heaven? or is your god merely a god of rewards? like the puppy dog you fetch for him because you know that later he will give you a bone.
JOY, thank you for that retelling of the colourful myth, but i've read it. now then, no one will take my point! answer my question about the free will. if they would have had free will without the tree, WHY PUT IT THERE? and then put the serpent there. god caused the fall of man and then damned all of us to hell.
god = sick
JOY, adam HAD NO CHOICE! God set up the experiment and KNEW ALL ALONG WHAT WOULD HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!! how can this not be clear? you put a rat on a track with only one hallway. the track leads to a bit of cheese on a mousetrap. you let the rat loose in this little hallway and leave the room. in an hour you find the rat trapped by the mousetrap. surprised? you set up the experiment and knew the outcome. by the very definition OF god he never needs to test people. he already KNOWS. and if adam and eve already had the free will to decide whether or not to follow god, what was the need to damn humanity?
finally, who witnessed the dialogue between god and satan?
EDIT: who witnessed the dialogue between god and satan in JOB. missed that last bit, sorry...
JOY, i'm glad i crack you up and amuse you, you frighten me. you completely ignore my question and go on about jesus' love. you've never even met him. only "heard" him in your head. maybe "felt" his presence. no? what colour are his eyes? you have no idea. you base your ideas of the damnation of man on the love of a god being you have never met and that frightens me. what if it tells you to commit murder or suicide? who are you to disagree? also, you have not satisfied my question: what was the point of the tree? if the tree never existed and the fall never took place, would adam and eve have FREE WILL, or not?
i know why you avoid answering. if you say yes, then the tree was pointless and god literally pushed humanity into hell. if you say no, then there is no reason to believe they had it before the fall, thereby again, god pushes mankind into hell.
god hates humankind, or he's not real.
also, what language does jesus speak to you?
COLLEGE, no it doesn't sound good, nor cool, from a wide angle... god is sick. he knocks mankind into damnation only so that he can lift a few (and a small percentage of the entire human race since adam, don't forget) of them back out? that's not love. that's hate. god is responsible for every good AND bad thing. he invented evil and then spends the duration of the life of the planet trying to eradicate it? and what biblical scripture says that Lucifer is Satan? their names aren't even similar.
JOY, avoid telling someone to "let it go" in a discussion, its very condescending. i cannot let the tree go because that is the crux of my problem (read the original question). if i let the tree go, there goes the problem. the tree is the proof that god was tricking adam and eve into commiting the sin that damned humanity. so it is god's fault that anyone goes to hell. without the tree, there is no sin, without sin, there is no hell. so i ask again: why did god plant the tree?
Also, the point of my asking about details of jesus is because i want to point out that you've never met the guy. you have only ever heard him in your head, or felt him in your gut. he is inside, just like my internal voice and instinct. unless you have seen him appear, in which case i will ask what his details are. of course I cannot know if you are lying or not if you tell me "blue" or whatever, but you'll know (and sometimes those are the best answers).
3and of the FRUIT of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not EAT of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'
i HAVE read it. it appears you haven't. there was fruit on this tree, otherwise why would god say there was?
now, adam and eve had the choice, granted. the serpent tricked eve (meanwhile if the serpent was satan and god turned the serpent into a snake, cursing it forever to slither, would every snake be satan?) ok. so god set up the whole thing, the tree, the serpent, the two people. god also knew what the outcome would be if the serpent was allowed to talk with eve. remember, in job we find out that even satan had to ask god's permission to give job hell, and god said yes, but with stipulations! that the serpent could not kill job himself!!! this means that god allowed the serpent to trick eve! as part of his "infallable" plan. but this was not an excercise in free will, this was the damnation of humanity. eve had never even...
... contemplated eating of the tree before (we see in "6And the woman seeth that the tree [is] good for food, and that it [is] pleasant to the eyes,"). it appears that she thinks about it for the first time after the serpent. so without his trickery, she never would have eaten of it. still having free will.
COLLEGE, your reference doesn't say Lucifer. also, it refers to "someone" who has shaken the world and made cities tremble. but if lucifer and satan are the same, wasn't he already "cast" out before adam and eve? what earthly cities were these that trembled?
JOY, we have NO reason to believe adam and eve cared about the tree until the serpent tricked them. they could have gone on forever without touching it. as for satan eventually tricking someone else, we have the exact same dilemma: god created satan and would have to give the "go" for satan to cause mankind's fall. god orchestrated our destruction and damnation on purpose, if that isn't evil, i don't know what is!
BLUE AVATAR, i cannot be any more clear: GOD ORCHESTRATED THE FALL OF MANKIND! if mozart writes a d flat for the violins and they play a d flat, should we blame the violins? NO! god was NOT surprised that adam and eve fell to temptation (which if you read job you know that god has to give permission before his subjects are tempted or messed with). the damnation of humanity was god's plan from the beginning of the "holy" book.
COLLEGE, all things that exist were created by god (if you believe in god). this includes evil, otherwise you're saying that evil is as eternal as god himself. now creating the possibility is the same as creating evil directly.
JOY, also, not sure if it is a pun or not, but im not S&M. there is only one of me, and i'm not into that kind of kink.
- Anonymous1 decade agoFavorite Answer
Like you, I have on many occasions wrestled with this and other similarly difficult problems. I find them difficult because I tend to focus on the immediate causes and effects, as does your question. I obviously can't write an essay of adequate length here, but I think if we zoom out and look at the bigger picture, it may begin to make some sense.
At the time Adam and Eve were created, the universe had already been infected with evil through Lucifer/Satan's rebellion. Of course, God foreknew this would occur when he created Lucifer, so I'm certainly not letting God off the hook. Apparently, God's ultimate purpose was not to create a perfect universe (and earth, and human race), but one with the potential to eradicate evil through the process of man's free will. However, without a real choice, free will itself is just a potentiality, an abstraction. The choice to love God and hate evil requires the availability of two opposing outcomes.
God, being their creator, was the source of every good thing, of life itself and all that was necessary to sustain it, for Adam and Eve. Had He not permitted the serpent, evidently inhabited by Satan, to interact with Adam and Eve, to offer them the alternative outcome, their choice to love and obey God would have been stupidly easy, not even a choice at all.
Of course, in setting up this situation, God foreknew what Adam and Eve's choice would be, and was already planning to give mankind a chance to learn from their tragic error. One day God would inhabit human flesh, live a sinless life, die an agonizing, atoning death and rise again. This would be the ultimate expression of His love and mercy for mankind, while yet satisfying His justice. This would reveal all the aspects of His character. This would enable the process through which mankind could have a real choice, and evil could still be eradicated from the universe.
It actually sounds pretty good when you stop and think about it from a wide-angle point of view. It's when we focus microscopically that things start to look crappy for God, and I don't condemn you for doing so. I would just encourage you to keep seeking with an open mind.
::EDIT:: Thanks for pointing out the Lucifer thing. Whether or not Satan was actually the Lucifer mentioned in Isaiah 14:12-15, all of my points stand as-is. As you say, God created whomever/whatever it was that tempted them to sin.
Also, God did not create evil; He created its possibility. It's an important distinction.
::EDIT 2:: This isn't a convenient place to conduct an ongoing debate, so this will be my last post on this question. I don't agree that creating beings with the option to disobey and do evil constitutes the creation of evil. If God chooses to create a world involving free creatures, then He cannot guarantee that they will always do what is right. Evil, therefore, is created whenever one of these free moral agents chooses to create it.
Oh, I also meant to answer you about Isaiah 14:12-15. I don't know the history of how that passage has been translated from the Hebrew, but some translations do specify "Lucifer," while others just refer to "star of the morning, son of the dawn," or the like. In any case, Revelation 12:9 is the passage that seems to link Satan with whatever his name was.Source(s): http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/deb... http://www.reasons.org/resources/fff/2000issue04/i... http://www.leaderu.com/theology/theodicy.html
- ManoGodLv 61 decade ago
Actually the tree wasnt evil. Nor was it an apple. The apple is a man made fruit invented in the 14th century.
But it was mans disobediance that was the sin, not because of sex as some say, or putting eve above God as others say. The sin commited was high treason.
Adam was given dominion over the earth and everything in it bar this one tree. The tree of knowledge.
When Adam and eve fell, they not only disobeyed God but Adam conferred the legal rights of the earth and every thing in it to God's enemy the devil. That is why he is described as the 'God of this world'.
The original sin was high treason against God and the betrayel was inflicted on all men from thereafter because all mankind became slaves to the devil.
But Adam and Eve had free will. They could have chosen to seek God's council before listening and obeying the devil.
Jesus Christ actually gave his life to legally buy back the dominion from the devil. He legally paid the price with his life to repay the high treason of Adam and so made manking potentially free.
However, much of mankind still doesn't know that this means they can be born again and have God's spirit in them. Which is the freedom they need to get out of the slavery of the devil.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
There was no evil Tree in The Graden, God said EVERY TREE WAS GOOD FOR FOOD THAT GREW OUT OF THE GROUND, Gen.2:9 But there was 2 others trees that did not grow out of the ground, They both were in the midst of the garden, The tree of Life & the tree of knowledge of good & evil, If Eve did not consented to the upright serpent to have a relationship, then everyone that was born would have been born with eternal life, But since they had that relationship of sex for pleasure only Then they took of the tree of good & evil. Cain was not even Adam's son, & that serpent walked upright before the curse, In Gen.3:14 You see God taking that serpent & take his arms & legs away & put him into the repitile family, But not until the curse. Those 2 trees was the laws of reproduction, & since the fall, woman has never been able to tell when she can concieve, She lost that knowledge in Gen. 2:16 But the animal kingdom did not lose that knowledge.
- I speak TruthLv 61 decade ago
you are looking at this in the wrong waysgod did not make the serpent to tempt Eve nor is he cruel, you have been listening to Satans lies, spread through his religion God explained the repercussions of disobedience would be so Adam and Eve were warned of the concequences of disobedience, it was notsuch a hars or hard request that God requested of them, from all the trees in the Garden they were allowed to eat only one Tree God requested them not to eat from(Genesis2:16)
Satan was not created to tempt anyone with evil intent No, he was creat?God created many spirit creatures or angels like himself of spirit God created them all with perfect bodies not one of them was a satan or a devil, Thhe time came , however, when one of these spirit sons of God made himself the Devil, that is, a hateful liar who speaks bad things about another. He also made himself Satan, that is an opposer of God. He was not created that way, for example, A thief is not born a thief. He may have come from a good family, having honest parents and law-abiding brothers and sisters. But his own desire for what money can buy is what may have caused him to become a thief.
The angel that became the Devil was present when God created the earth and later the first human couple,Adam and Eve.(Job38:4,7) So he would have heard Gopd tell them to have children.(Genesis1:27,28) He knew that after a while the whole earth would be filled with righteous people worshiping God That was part of God'\s purpose. However, this angel thought a great deal of his own beauty and intelligence and wanted to receive for himself the worship that would be given to God.(Ezekiel 28:13-15 ; Matthew4:10) Instead of putting this wrong desire out of his mind, he kept thinking about it. This led to his taking action to obtain the honor and importance he desired.
The rebellious angel used a lowly serpent to speak to the the first weoman, Eve he did this much as a skilled personcan make it seem as if a nearby animal or a dummy figure is talking. Notice too, hedid not go to Adam, who was more versed with God's requirements but he did go straight to the inexperianced woman with lesser knowledge, now how cunning is that!
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- Anonymous1 decade ago
It was not an evil tree, but a tree of knowledge. The problem is that Adam and Eve had all the knowledge they needed. The only knowledge they lacked was the experience of sin. They were virgins, in that they had not sinned. But, once they did, it could not be turned back. Actually, it was Adam's choice to bring sin into the world. He choose a woman over God.
- 1 decade ago
Because you are taking the bible too seriously. Modern religions are based on text written on stone tablets many thousands of years before. Stop wasting your time and everybody else's time with innane questions about the validity of a book that cannot be validated. Go to the archeology section and you'll find where the true stories came from. Bible stories are a rehashed fantasy rewriiten hundreds (thousands) of years after the events by power-hungry priests to control people.
- 1 decade ago
Remember God created man with a choice because the fallen angles were in God's presence and decided not to worship Him, so now He gives man a choice to worship regardless all our downs and ups, to worship Him no matter what, if you would see realy who God is you would be astonished how kind and cool He is in all He's glory I tell you I also had these questions and doudts about God but now I've met Him and mirracles happened, That is not an evil tree it is the tree of choice...
- Ex HeadLv 61 decade ago
Genesis 2:9 states that:
The tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. It was not a "fruit" tree. IT WAS SATAN. And by this passage, it was a choice to listen to Satan OR God. I know you will not understand, but please go and read this verse I have given you and read the WHOLE Chapter to see the meaning. Remember when Christ called the religious leaders their father was the Devil and the father of lies, he was a liar from the BEGINNING? If you need more help, please let me know. You cannot just read something and know about it. You must pick up the subject and take it from there.Source(s): Years of study in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Languages, the (origional texts), and most important, Gods Word.
- Anonymous1 decade ago
Think of God as a parent,.....When you tell your children not to do something you expect them not to do it......or suffer the consiquences.....Do not be blind to the Moral of the story.......God told Them they could have anything else they wanted>>>They choose to be greedy and Trust in the Lie that lucifer told Eve.....The Morals of the story are U cant allways get what u want.......be happy with what u got ....Do not trust the Devil....There is something out there BIGGER than U
- Anonymous1 decade ago
no rational thinking person can give you a satisfying reply to your question.because it was unscientific theory and no person with scientific temper would believe in that adam, eve and tree story it goes against evolution theory which is scientific.