Why would God need to die for our sins?

Question

Why would Jesus Christ need to die for our sins? If God makes up all the rules about what's moral why would he design the universe that he would, or his son which is somehow still him, need to die on the cross for our sins. Couldn't he just forgive our sins? It seems God is a drama queen who needs this big production instead of just using his superior power to wipe away our sins. It seems God is into sadistic & masochistic events for himself since he designed the universe that he needed to die on the cross.

Additional Details

nick p -- God didn't "make up" morality but it flows from his eternal essence. If that's true we have three options: 1 morality is separate from God and it is not under the power of God 2. If it flows from Him it is a part of Him but he doesn't control his own nature 3 it flows from Him but he does have the power to control it. If one is true the good can not be held to be the same as God. If 2 is true God is not all powerful -- maybe another God created him,. if 3 is true we are back to the problem of my question. Which is it?

twistedt -- you didn't answer the question. There are lots of ways to show love that would not involve creating a whole universe just to die in such a drama. Free will has nothing to do with the question. Why did God design a whole universe to just do this big soap opera?

nick p -- Thanks for the seriousness that you have tried to answer my questions. Morality being conceived as separate from God is not absurd. Plato asked the question along time: Is something good because the gods say it's good or becuase it is good? I do not think one of the greatest thinkers in the history of the world wasm absurd for asking that question.

Regardless let's move on to your statements. When we speak of mercy between humans or some other moral virtue we are talking about moral actions not God. This would imply God is separate from morality. The question is if morality is good because he defines it or if it's good because it is good. You can't have it both ways. The solution you offered: mercy is good because is God is good is the same as either making God the same with morality or that morality is good and true because God wills it. You can dance around the issue all day but either God acknowledges morality as good because its good regardless of him or its good....

because he wills it. Nothing in the Christain theory of God sees morality as not as something under his command therefore he wanted or needed his whole big drama event he planned. He willed a morality, created metaphyiscal sin, that only he could wash away by dying. He is a very strange God that likes pain and suffering because he created an universe that needed this whole drama.

Nick p -- Getting upset? When someone needs to start the personal attacks it's generally not a good sign that they are up to the task. Regardless first let me correct you since you feel a need to belittle me. One, I've been studying philosophy for over 30 years so grow up and understand just because someone doesn't agree with you that doesn't mean that person must be new to a subject. I never once launched a personal attack against you, except for this statement in answer to your personal attack. So agree to disagree with civilty.

I will grant your statement makes sense because you get to define God as everything you want but with nothing you don't want. Since God can not be defined it's easy to raise above logic since logic doesn't apply. However, I love the statement "God can define morality without commanding it to be good." Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself. What would be a morality that isn't good?

Answer 1

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

Firstly, one of the doctrines of the Christian faith is the "hypostatic union" which holds that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man. Jesus Christ as man died on the cross. Thus, God didn't actually die according to Christianity. Secondly, God doesn't "make up" morality. Rather, what's moral is that which flows from his eternal essence. Mercy is good because God is merciful (not because God arbitrarily commanded it to be good). The same for justice, generosity, love, etc. Further, through Christ God demonstrates his love for mankind. Christ accomplished what no other could do, which was abide according to the law of God. According to Christianity man is unworthy because of his lawlessness and disobedience to God. He can't follow the law; he can't obey God's will. This is why Christ died so that through him we may be saved from our sin, which isn't earned but received as a free-gift by God's grace. For Christians, one merely needs to accept Christ as his savior, recognizing his inability to save him self through any means whatsoever. Also, if God were to just forgive everyone, it would be an act against a persons freedom; for not all want to be forgiven (some think they've done nothing wrong). Through Christ, those who believe themselves to be guilt of sin, are able to freely accept God's gift of salvation, while also allowing those who find such a move to be irrational to live freely as they choose.



Well, your first option is absurd. Since if it flows from his essence, and God is his own essence, then it is not separate from him. Secondly, maybe I shouldn't say "flows from" since this obviously confusing you. What I mean is that what is of God is also eternal, thus mercy is eternal (and so the other virtues). God didn't will mercy to be something good; mercy is good because God is ultimately good. This eliminates the problem (which your trying to use to justify your argument) that either morality is outside of God or else he arbitrarily wills it. The third option is that what's of God is of God's nature, which is eternal. He is eternally merciful, loving, just, etc. These things didn't become good, and neither is there anything outside him that makes these things good; his being justifies their goodness. Again, because God is ultimately good (and the standard for Christians idea of goodness) whatever he is, is good. Since Christians hold God to be merciful, just, loving, generous, etc. these things are good.

Your second options is confusing. Why doesn't he control his own nature? You third option is confusing for the same reasons. However, I think you imagined (because I used the word "flows") that its flowing out like water or something. Sorry if that was confusing.

Yeah, I realize the problem stems from Plato's dialog the "Euthyphro". However, your first option doesn't really have anything to do with it. You tried to squeeze the dilemma in, even when my word "flow" confused you. It seems like you've just learned about it, and thinking not many others know too much about it themselves you can enlighten them. I thank you for that, but this is one of the greatest "false dilemmas" in the history of philosophy. For Plato, it worked; since the gods he discussed were finite. Applying it to eternal God is where you loose the force of the dilemma. Also, Plato is probably the most influential philosophers in the history of philosophy. Elements of his philosophy can be found in a lot of other great thinkers. However, it doesn't follow that because he is very influential that he must be a great philosopher. He had a lot of bad ideas that Aristotle had to work out for him. These same bad ideas seeped back up in the modern philosophers, like Descartes and Kant, making a gulf between reality and and the senses (which was originally Plato's, actually Parmendies' idea). This has greatly effected our western civilization, leading to skepticism and subjectivism.

Now, moving on to your response. Perhaps you're not reading very clearly. You clearly want the force of your dilemma but I assure you it does not work. It is a "false dilemma". But, you're not going to listen. You've just learned about this and have set on on a mission to disprove Christianity as the world knows it. Nobody is going to change your mind. Everyone gets like that at some point when they read something intriguing to them, and apparently hearing or reading about Euthyphro's dilemma has done just that. I get what you're trying to do, and will not waste anymore time trying to explain the third option, which makes it a false dilemma. However, you again have made another false dilemma telling me that either "this or "that: with God. Do you really think you've exhausted all the possibilities on this one? Now, God can define morality without commanding it to be good. His BEING defines it. If you don't understand that, ask someone else.

Asker's Rating:

Asker's Comment:

Because you tried and except for the last round were civil. Feel free to make a comment. Your totally wrong but I relish the debate. Too bad in the end you didn't.

Answer 2

ROFL, God as a drama queen. A pretty good description, I reckon. Honestly, I dunno - it all seems one big farce to me. It doesn't quite make sense...

Answer 3

"LOOK AT ME, I CAN KILL MYSELF! I HAVE 99999999999999 MORE LIVES AND YOU ONLY GOT ONE! HAHA, LOSER!"
-From God, to humans.

Answer 4

Well, we typically dont appreciate anything that doesnt come with a price.

Answer 5

No its the people who wrote the bible and preach about it that make it so dramatised etc to intrigue people to beleive.

Answer 6

well, imagine that you had just created man, the earth, and everything and tv hasnt been invented yet - ya just gotta create some kind of soap opera .lol

Answer 7

HEY FIRST OF ALL .,... ALL THE PROPHETS WHO CAME ON EARTH DINT DIE FOR OUR SINS ...THEY DIED CAUZ THEY ARE IN HUMAN FORM THEY CAME ON EARTH TO TEL US THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD..THEY R NOT GOD..EXAMPLE IF U GO TO SCHOOL U NEVER SAY GOODMORNING TO THE BOOKS BUT UR GOAL IS TO KNO THAT BOOK BUT U NEED SOMEONE TO TELL U WHATS IN BOOK SO U ALWAYS SAY GOODMORNING TO THE TEACHER WHO TELL US ABOUT THAT BOOK IN SAME WAY JESUS,MOHAMMAD,AND ALL OTHER PROPHETS THEY CAME TO EARTH TO TELL US ABUT THAT TRUTH OF GOD THAT U HE IS EVERYWHERE....UNDERSTAND SWEETHEART

Answer 8

Think about this. We the people in america make up the rules for this country. When some one breaks them, the rest of us want justice to be done to that person. They must pay the penalty. How would you feel if judges or juries started arbitrarily letting criminals off the hook for breaking the law. This would just cause more lawlessness. Now, God is just and sin is lawlessness. God made us to be in relationship with him. This requires free will. Free will allows for the choice to sin. God is sinless and can have no part with it. Therefore sin separates us from God. Since God is just, a penalty must be paid for our sin. We are completely helpless to pay the penatly for our sin ourselves. Yet because God loves us he was willing to lay down his Godhood, become a man, live a sinless life as a man and then pay the penalty for us so that we can have that relationship with Him. He made the way for us to come back to him. Now it's our choice whether or not we will go to him.

Answer 9

It probably served as an eye-opener to society, since most had become disconnected with God he couldnt just tell them "Obey Me" when they had been going years without morals, unpunished.

Also, who knows? That was 2000 yrs ago. Everything was different back then. Maybe you can just ask him yourself when you die.

Answer 10

The Christian explanation: Mankind, in an increasingly fallen or entangled state, so befuddled that even the Chosen People needed ritual baptism by John the Baptist before they could understand and accept Messiah, had a choice. Jesus says He would be as "mother hen" to the People, "but they would not." Hence, He continued to show the Way of divine Love and Living Word, even in the case of their hatred of Him.

Thus the Crucifixion was "Plan B," likely from centuries of anti-Messianic tendencies among Jews. The Crucifixion and Resurrection served to demonstrate to mankind that Life is more than materiality, and that divine Love meets every human need.

"The Great Divorce," C. S. Lewis,
"Expecting Adam," Martha Beck.

Answer 11

It's religion that has made itself God's mouthpiece. Many have asked why an almighty deity would ask for money from the poor and middle class..

Answer 12

Are you a Christian?
Well accordingly God gave us free will. Oh of course God can go "*BAM* YOUR SINS ARE GONE!" but then what's the point of living, God wants us to know, to feel, to understand life itself, the hardships, the happiness, the pain, the joy, company, and loneliness in order to do that, God did a sacrificially powerful thing, he became man. To relate to us, to understand us and most crucially let us understand him. No on e would really bother about him otherwise. Okay I'm going to use a example.

A puppy, and it's master. If a puppy never knew it's master but everyday it's master would fill up the puppy's bowl, to let it enjoy food, eat and drink, would the puppy even love, or KNOW what love is, much more give it to the master.
However another situation when the master appears to it everyday, and pats it, hugs it, rest with it, play with it, and look it in the puppy's eyes telling it how much it is loved, only than will the puppy truly know, truly feel.

God, stooped down to us, and existed to us, like situation 2 of the example. From his title of ALMIGHTY ONE, to be one of us to let us truly know, and truly feel. He gave up everything and became the simple being know as man, to DIE, just to allow us to realize his love.

It's not whether he died for our sins, he died out of love, to let us live. If God goes around and just taking our sins away. He might as well just let us exist in heaven from the beginning of time but because he loves us so, he wants us to love him like he loves us. That's why we live.

All in all, God died so as to let us know he loves us, even if he was the strongest, and most powerful being the the world. He was willing to come down and be one of us just to let us know, dying for us isn't a huge deal, because to him, love is stronger than life itself.

Source(s):

Go read up on http://www.y-zine.com/yjesus.htm . However i get a little bored reading it, with all the countless of words inside. But if you need answers, they have it. From how will jesus relate to your everyday, whether he is a moral teacher, madmen, or really god. All that jazz. Enjoy

Answer 13

Good question. Kind of shows that religion was created by an ancient barbaric human mind.

Answer 14

actually....... (warning:agnostic point of view)

your "God" chose to die dramatically in a cross to appeal to the people for their pity.

According to my professor, Christianity's main point is for men to feel pity towards others.. this can be proven by the golden rule,

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
( Matthew 7:1) for christianity, "

and

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful."
(Udana-Varga 5,1) for buddhism.

this means that for christianity, it's the "they do" comes first. if they showed pity to you, you are supposed to show pity towards them too. but for buddhism, it's the "do" that comes first. the rules have miles of difference if you may observe that here: compare them all. (i find christianity's rule as something like a payback thing.)

The Universality of the Golden Rule in the World Religions

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule…

----only chrisianity is different. all of them talk of do not do something that is harmful to others or do what the others do to you.. but for christianity, it's the other way around, it is, whatever others do for you, u also do for them. (again, difference is miles away.)

You see, for christianity, it is Pity that is moving the christians. So for God to die in the cross especially to mention "it was for the people" people can't help but to pity this "god' , think that they are actually the ones in debt of him, and start to follow him for something they could return to the god who died for saving them from their sins..

God showed pity towards them by dying in the cross, the people are bound to feel pitiful.

Source(s):

p.s. both of my theist and philosophy subjects before support the same reasoning for pity.